Post pictures of horses with raised backs/engaged hind end?

[Sunshine2Me]

Like this??



Her back is raised, although I don't know who engaged she actually is...

[pammy]

Pammy: There are lots of BNT that I have ridden with that ask you to supple the neck and poll of the horse. Would you agree that in suppling the neck will help to get a looser back?

I think if the horse is quite tense/locked up (say, OTTB or a spooky/looky horse in new surroundings) then this would be a time where one could 'ride the neck down,' soften, massage the jaw and yes, I think this can contribute to helping relax the back and the rest of the horse.

[galopp]

Sunshine.....LOL good one.

There are lots of BNT that I have ridden with that ask you to supple the neck and poll of the horse. Would you agree that in suppling the neck will help to get a looser back?

I think if the horse is quite tense/locked up...... then this would be a time where one could 'ride the neck down,' soften, massage the jaw and yes, I think this can contribute to helping relax the back and the rest of the horse.

The neck is the balancing rod, it can positively represent a correct connection, or negative be used against the horse. So the question: is what is 'suppled'?

Imho a mobile jaw is very important in requesting/allowing the horse to use its entire body. If the jaw is mobile the neck can allow the rest of the horse to work completely. Light/minimal changes of flexion to help mobilize the jaw, left the horse step UP to the bridle (literally and figuretively) can help. Then the aids will go through the horse. Allowing fdo to lengthen the posture can also. Figures/exercises (carefully chosen for a purpose) is necessary, horse becomes easier to sit.

What do we usually see when someone 'supples' the neck? Endless massaging to create flexion l/r without intention to rebalance or mobilize the jaw. Sawing to create giving rather than coming up to the bridle. Riding the neck down/closed will not help uphill balance, nor create swing. It just puts the horse against the hand, but does not carry the horse out to the bridle. Sitting is very difficult, and bending often does not serve an engagement purpose.

Imho it is the entire horse which must be set up to be supple, hence the use of figures/exercises to address full use of the horses body part. How we allow the horse to (re)use the neck is part of that. But if we try to control the neck per se, use the jaw against the horse, that is not suppling but truncation.

[LaNet]

Slightly on the forhand, but good hind leg step

[pammy]

Galopp, agreed on many points. I believe anytime we resort to hand riding alone, we're asking for it. Kottas and pretty much all the masters, living and dead, say the answer to a problem is "seat, legs, then hands."

And it's important to diagnose exactly *where* the blockage is in the neck: *if* it is surely from the jaw, then massaging the mouth, flexions (both mounted and unmounted) are useful and effective, however, sometimes what *feels* like a 'hard mouth' is nothing more than the result of a horse 'hanging' on the reins, a result of being crooked and being on the forehand and no matter what you do with your hands, nothing will fix that. And sometimes a neck will feel rigid but what is happening is it is the horse's hard side, where muscles are short and lack the ability to stretch and this takes a clever and balanced rider carefully gymnasticizing the horse on both sides. And, naturally, if a horse is allowed to travel with a shoulder popping out, an inexperienced rider may very well feel that horse is 'hard' on that side of its mouth/neck, and again, it's not about 'suppling the neck' but rather straightening the horse and driving him forward.

Yes, for sure the entire body of the horse must be taken into consideration but when there is a real problem with the jaw, all the riding forward and straight will not relieve tension there~ it generally must be addressed by itself, first, then the rest of the orchestra of the application of the aids come into play.

[dancing]

... a mobile jaw is very important in requesting/allowing the horse to use its entire body. If the jaw is mobile the neck can allow the rest of the horse to work completely. Light/minimal changes of flexion to help mobilize the jaw, let the horse step UP to the bridle (literally and figuratively) can help. Then the aids will go through the horse. Allowing fdo to lengthen the posture can also...

(bold added)

Mobilizing the jaw and sending the horse up to the bridle facilitate the telescoping of the neck which makes a forward, down and out stretch possible. This is rarely taught, and it is an excellent way of avoiding or correcting any rigidity in the jaw, neck or poll.

[MagicEm]

... a mobile jaw is very important in requesting/allowing the horse to use its entire body. If the jaw is mobile the neck can allow the rest of the horse to work completely. Light/minimal changes of flexion to help mobilize the jaw, let the horse step UP to the bridle (literally and figuratively) can help. Then the aids will go through the horse. Allowing fdo to lengthen the posture can also...

(bold added)

Mobilizing the jaw and sending the horse up to the bridle facilitate the telescoping of the neck which makes a forward, down and out stretch possible. This is rarely taught, and it is an excellent way of avoiding or correcting any rigidity in the jaw, neck or poll.

(italics added)

I totally agree with this. I think I got my first REAL understanding of this from a gelding I exercised for a friend and he had a tendency to by very round/sucked-back up front and very tight in his back. If you couldn't send him to the bit so that his neck/spine telescoped forward/down/out while mobilizing the jaw, you had nothing.

I've had other horses feel connected, stretched to the bit and 'on my seat' before but most of the horses I was riding at the time had a tendency to invert rather than suck, so this was a different feel and was a big revelation for me. It's something I'm still working out in my head.

[JanetGeorge]

Back nicely up - not fully engaged behind?? (Thankfully or he'd have been over the fence! )



Better engagement behind.

[parvati51]

What do we usually see when someone 'supples' the neck? Endless massaging to create flexion l/r without intention to rebalance or mobilize the jaw.

What are the best exercises to mobilize the jaw? My horse doesn't go there naturally ... sometimes, at the very end of a long trail ride, she'll chomp a little, but not normally during a regular ride. Even if all we do is walk, and I spend my time focusing on bouncing her from one leg to another, one bend to another (taking the focus off her neck and mouth), I never get actual relaxation of the jaw.

[MagicEm]

I am not galopp and have nowhere near her experience, but with that in mind, here's some exercises I've found to be extremely helpful with my old mare who was stiff in her jaw.

I did LOTS of shoulder in/shoulder out work on the circle (mainly in trot) and eventually did haunches in as well (and a bit of haunches out on the circle but that is HARD -- at least for me ). We also did lots of spirals in (trot and canter) -- first just keeping true flexion but eventually we would work on changing flexion within the spiraling in and out. We would also do transitions within and between gaits in the spiral. All of these exercises were essential in teaching my mare how to take a half-halt 'properly' in her hind legs by folding them and increasing articulation of the joints in the hind end.

Throughout all of this we would frequently incorporate segments of going forward either on the 20 m or the long side. We would try and take the engagement we had created into longer, looser strides (which ends up increasing suspension).

[Bats79]

Klimke never agreed with an "overly supple" neck. He thought it weakend the horse in front and was damaging to the connection with the bit.

I've found that doing flexions a la Philippe Karl (which has nothing in common with left / right swinging of the neck) actually strengthens the horse neck both laterally and horizontally and allows the horse to carry the neck and use it as a balancing pole as it should.

Neither a ridgid or an overly supple neck allows the horse to use his balance forward and UP but only back and down.

[touchngofarm]

I hope you that post did not think that I agree with "swinging the neck" or "wagging" the neck.

I just wanted to bring to light that if the horse yields in the poll and jaw the neck will be effected and so will the back.

So in reality when you imobilize the jaw you are to a degree softening the neck. If the horse is taught to follow the hand riding fdo will be no problem.

I do want to ask a question..............................do any of you agree with the thinking "Leg without hand or hand without leg" at certain times in your riding?

[MagicEm]

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I do want to ask a question..............................do any of you agree with the thinking "Leg without hand or hand without leg" at certain times in your riding?

Yes. But I'm not sure I feel qualified to comment more than that.

[touchngofarm]

MagicEm..................why would you not feel qualified? When do you think you would use this in your training?

[morganflyer]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't we always strive for leg without hand and hand without leg. The hand and leg aids can be given within a second of each other, but if we use both together than aren't we telling the horse to stop and go at the same time? We contradict ourselves and confuse the horse.

[MagicEm]

MagicEm..................why would you not feel qualified? When do you think you would use this in your training?

Because people like you and galopp have so much more knowledge than I. And it's still a concept I'm very much trying to grasp.

But I will try and expand a few different instances.

With some horses, particularly 'sensitive' horses who can be round up front-- but fake and behind the contact-- and tight in the back, I think of keeping a very stable torso (and thus arms/hands/rein -- elbows connect reins to torso through seat), staying very rhythmic in my seat (usually I would be at the posting trot with one of these horses, so 'posting' in the rhythm that encourages the horse to relax), and then my 'active' aid would my be legs. In this case I'm encouraging the horse to stretch over its back and connect to the bit and the legs 'trigger' (or I guess aid would be the proper word ) that reaction. Often I also think of 'breathing through my wrists' as I'm activating with my legs.

Another instance I can think of is when doing an upward half-halt to encourage the horse to become more up/open and thus try and take the half-halt more in their hind legs. I would do an upward half-halt with the reins, THEN yield and activate with the legs.

There are other cases too . . . I think one of the main things I try and keep in my mind is tact and timing. The horses I've owned/worked with have not been the types to tolerate being held restricted in front and driven forcefully with the legs (I'm not making generalizations -- I realize, you can ride w/o thinking 'hands w/o legs, legs w/o hands' and not be crank and spank, I'm just using it as an example).

My brain's a little tired right now . . . sorry if any of this is unclear.

[galopp]

I do agree with seat without hands and visa versa at certain times, imho if they are 'used' together, there will be a contradiction. I would further say I think a solution to any blockage is most often seat or leg into the hand, rarely the hand first and if so in a very calculated way (and NEVER against the horse).

And absolutely agree with pammy with the progression of seat/leg/hand in almost all cases.

Imho however the mouth is not massaged (which imho makes a pix of against the bars or shuttling the bit l/r. Imho lifting the bit is not that, and changing flexion (laterally) is not either. A hard mouth is a dead one, strapped shut, no use of the tongue and no swallowing.

If the neck is rigid it is imho either lacking reaction to the leg/immobile in the jaw or out of balance so indeed straightening the horse and making him active is part of the solution.

[dancing]

...So in reality when you imobilize the jaw you are to a degree softening the neck. If the horse is taught to follow the hand riding fdo will be no problem....

I am assuming you meant to say "when you mobilize the jaw," and not "when you immobilize the jaw." I would agree that when the horse can be induced to mobilize the jaw and chew, he will soften his neck, because he relaxes.

"Mobilizing the jaw and sending the horse up to the bridle " does teach the horse to follow the hand and telescope the neck, if the hands are steady and sensitive, and the rider can follow the horse's mouth. As you say, with those aspects in place, fdo can be developed with no problem.

.........do any of you agree with the thinking "Leg without hand or hand without leg" at certain times in your riding?

Yes, I do think there is a time and place for that. It's an orchestra of aids, but sometimes the horn section or the strings may take a rest while the others play.

There are also times when hands, legs and seat act together - or very nearly together. I don't want to split hairs here. As was mentioned on another thread, even when the hand is passive, that is still a use of the hand. With tact and skill a rider can avoid a clash of aids, while still combining them for a particular result.

[Reata]

Gosh, I thought legs without hands and hands without legs was a golden rule.. don't tell me I'm wrong.. LOL
One, then the other in quick concession maybe, but never both together..
Seat and hands, now that is a slightly different thing..

[Mariah]

Hands without legs, legs without hands means that while one is active, the other is passive. this can happen within split seconds..leg,leg, hand, leg.

many times I see that saying interpreted as the rider should throw the hands forward and drop the connection as they use their legs. That is not how it should be.

galopp, I am sure that somewhere on this thread (which i really haven't read) you defined "mobilizing the jaw". How is that different than Pammy's massaging the reins?

In Complete training of the horse and rider, Podjaski wrote about using soft massaging motions of the hands to mobilize the horse's jaw.

Thanks for clarifying.

[MysticKiger]

Hands without legs, legs without hands means that while one is active, the other is passive. this can happen within split seconds..leg,leg, hand, leg.

So very true! And a concept that I am just beginning to get crumbs of! While I may never get my timing and feel up to my mare's level we are enjoying the try! At the very least she has made me a better rider . Nature gave her the physical ability now my goal is to be able to ride it. She's a big horse in a little horse's body, 15h.


This is our first and only schooling show to date - Intro. She scored wonderfully, me not so, but we still managed to break 60 in both tests. I hope to keep riding and learning. There's so much good discussion on this board that really helps put things in perspective.

[Wyalkatchem]

I was drooling over this stud's young horses (waiting for that lottery win) and found some older pics I think look good:



(3yo)

(a bit crooked)

(4yo)

When reading the posts I really remembered that there's a huge difference between what different people seem to want: and I wouldn't want the back visible behind the saddle to be the only thing up - that's what you see in overbent horses. I want the wither area to be up.

[touchngofarm]

Here are a few of Vincere under saddle. Sorry I don't know how to put the pictures up for view. I am lucky I can do this.

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=2 ... 1543506156

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=2 ... 1543506156

[MagicEm]

Here you go touchngo:

[touchngofarm]

Thank you MagicEm. Can you PM me and tell me how you do that?

[Friesiansport]

:lol: Like this??

Her back is raised, although I don't know who engaged she actually is...

I think she's a bit croup high

[Beware The Judge]

Hey Gigi!

To get the picture embedded into the post, you have to right click the photo on facebook. A menu pops up, and you'll scroll down and select properties. Copy the URL that shows up under location. Then hit the Img button you see just above your text box here on the UDBB. Paste the URL you just copied, then hit the Img button again to close it.

It will look like this.

[img]post%20URL%20here[/img]

Hope that helps.

[KrazyTBMare]

Whaddya think?

[S~Maximus]

Here are a couple of my fellow... we are trotting down a little hill in pic 2