Help? long.. I don't know where..(updated w/pathology &

[Morgen]

Ok I’m really starting to run out of ideas & money for this horse… He was on ranitidine for 3wks with no improvement, vet suspected Lyme & treating with Doxy for even 2 doses last week was a BAD idea. Screwed up his gut systems & he produced slimy manure for 2 days and got aggressive again. He regained his appetite for a few days and now is off again after 3 doses of GastroGuard.

Backing up, I really felt he looked “off” in physique all year but only started showing attitude symptoms late fall. I feed to avoid ulcers with him as it’s been a problem as has been persistent colics since his very early youth. Lifelong diet & good weight haven’t been easy for him despite a vast variety of feeds/meds/herbs/etc etc. When he didn’t look so great later on this year I finally started introducing grain (formerly just BP & good hay). He may indeed be selenium/Vit E deficient but I’ve already been feeding Vit E & now a multivitamin supp for over a week and he’s still declining. I don’t expect miracles from anything (GG, vitamins etc) overnight but declining/worsening symptoms worries me. The only thing that fortunately HAS declined is the really pissy/dangerous attitude… it’s been replaced by spooky-ness of the very scary sort interspersed with malaise.

See he’s had these waves of increasing spooky-ness and VIOLENT anger increasing in intensity since Nov. More than a few times he’s been utterly terrifying to be around. Of course these are interspersed with a malaise and fickle appetite that isn’t much better.

Only clues are that bloodwork showed a decrease in WBC & slightly elevated muscle enzymes. Teeth were rechecked & done recently (for a while I suspected a broken tooth which would’ve explained sooo much).

Vet told me today she is running out of ideas. This horse IS historically very sensitive in every sense of the word. Examinations for body pain are hard to do as he’s soooo spooky. All the same, that wouldn’t make him go off his feed like he is. This horse has loved his beet pulp his whole life. Unless the ranitidine/GastroGuard would do that??? He acts like he WANTS something out of his food. Picks through very very intensely (interspersed with wandering off to crib, or just wandering off, or just spooking out of the blue). After his fourth dose this morning a few hours later he was showing these signs more… and when I left 3 hrs later he had decided to go take a nap.

He doesn’t look right through the abdomen.. He just doesn’t look right at all. Unfortunately for him the highly aggressive/and or spooky bouts have made it very hard to go over him. I had to remove him from his donkey friend which isn’t helping him mentally but when he has “bouts” he was too hard on his friend there (very abusive). He has a bad hip and his body tension is probably making it terrible right now so traveling to a clinic is really not a safe option (he might very well fall down in the trailer).

Vet suggested maybe a pain killer to see if I could go over his body easier… however at this point with his increasing fickle attitude towards hay (something he NEVER has done), I’m highly hesitant to do anything that will cause further digestive upset. I will add that ALL he wants is the sweetest parts of hay – acting like a sugar junky. I had tried alfalfa cubes but these seemed to make him more aggressive.

Is this just the most extreme ulcer ever and my slow reaction up front with feed/diet and eventually (when things worsened?) ranitidine.. and then finally GG isn’t enough? I’m very disturbed this morning to see him more spooky and more hungry acting/fickle than yesterday… Back in Oct I wanted to take a video of him trotting around and I had to make a massive ruckus to get him to trot. Today a vehicle driving by or me tossing the GG tube on the ground is enough to make him jump. Moreso though I’m worried that he’s not putting out the extreme volumes of manure and urine he has his whole life. I witnessed him do both this morning but still…

Are there further blood tests/safe physical tests I can try on him?

I had planned to go get some probiotics (VitaFlex Accel lists some but they seem pretty nominal and a long standing ulcer/Doxy upset could totally have depleted him). I'm worried that if he's got an impending blockage now (god knows why tho?) that these will cause acute gas pain. ?? So again I would start very very slow & bump up if I see no adverse signs.

I have Methocarbamol (sp? Muscle relaxer) that I tried one day on a fractional dose of…prescribed by the chiro/accu vet “as needed” when he gets sore in the past. He’s VERY sensitive to it & it’s all I’ve ever needed to relax him in the past if he’s had a sore back/muscle area from the hip. My one fractional (human) dose there DID make him drop and dangle dopey all day but his attitude got MUCH more nasty so I couldn’t go over him. I talked with the vet about having her (the other vet who does chiro and accupuncture) out but joked that I liked that woman too much to see her flattened by him.

I am really almost ready to throw in the towel and see what an autopsy brings. I know that sounds SO terrible but I don’t like having a randomly dangerous horse, nor one who has been totally miserable for a few months now... it was hard enough drawing a blood (wore my best steel toes & drank some calming herbal tea before hand). One vet friend suggested neuro testing… I don’t even know how I’d start there and how much I could do without going to a clinic. This has been my life-heart-horse but he’s not the “love” he was just a few months ago. He’s very unhappy & I don’t know how to help him anymore.

I just need to ask if anyone has seen anything like this, has some crack ideas I could try. Would know if somehow the antacid & GG could make a horse DECLINE? (I mean I know it can be throwing your money away if the horse doesn’t have ulcers but would it make things BAD? & Why?). The fact that he showed such typical ulcer symptoms to the muscle relaxer… well.. And is the extreme reaction to the human level relaxer dosage indicative of something that wouldn’t show up on a blood test?

I feel like the biggest clue is that he voraciously wants the second cut hay only… which I’m slowing adding on (oh yeah, I’ve been getting hay from everywhere I can to see if I can get something less sweet – hell of a year for that! – and still palatable). It just seems (and seemed before I started the ulcer treatments) like the 2nd cut hay makes him spookier – even though he frantically wants it. Is it possible he’s got IR in some weird extreme? I’m going to go try and read up more on that now… I have to go back in a few hours so I’ll report more. I normally don’t look to find answers here (just leads).. I’m just totally out of ideas and find myself floating between scared (of him… since I don’t know when he’ll act up anymore), sad (for him), scared (for my wallet – this is not a good time financially to be chasing ones tail like this for me) and simply exhausted.

[AmyG]

Can you take him to a clinic for diagnostic testing and whatever drugs he needs to facilitate that and support him? He sounds like his problems are beyond treating at home.

[Morgen]

The best option one is two and a half hours away. My concern is that his hip (it's asymmetric.. I spent a ton to learn why he was falling down a few years ago), causes him to fall when he misteps (fall fast and hard). Trailering was extremely hard on him 2 years ago (video from very good trailering company who was kind enough to warn me that he spent the whole time leaning hard against that wall both trips). He hasn't been on one since and I suspect, given his soreness, that he'd scramble badly & panic. In other words, unless nearly zonked out, I think he might hurt himself.

[jm]

I would definately try the hair analysis with him and ask for a rush. Copy your post above and PM to "healthybodies" When you are at the end of your rope - you have to be willing to try EVERYTHING. What is another $50 (cost to do a rush). So many horses on this BB have seen some wonderful and absolutely amazing changes - mine included!

If you do not get a PM back from Patsy soon - I would call her and if you are up for a rush fee - I would send it ASAP. She will do a rush if animal is VERY sick and since you are considering the "ultimate decision" with him - I think a rush is in order here.

[Morgen]

Thank you, I've just PMed her. I've got to go run and do some errands & go back there. I'm going to get Probios gel tubes.. maybe give some fractional doses & hope and pray. I read up on the IR/Cushings issues and very little jives although it's a tad similar in some regards I guess. I just look and him and comb through his manure and think "mal-absorption" and I don't have a concrete reason why.

It's like he's been poisoned or an organ is shutting down but his blood doesn't show this.. except the (and only slightly) low WBC.

I need to edit my above post too - I've had the vet out, it was the chiro/accupuncture vet I was talking about not wanting to have flattened.

[myboyzack]

Hi...I'm curious, what exactly does he get each day, (what type of grain, supps when he eats, that is)? Stalled or out 24/7? Shoes? I may have missed details reading your post quickly.

[Abby Kogler]

I would second the Patsy thing..you never know, she may pick up on something.

Dont ever feel bad about putting a horse down. It can be the biggest kindness you ever do. Horses dont fear death..they cant rationalize or un derstand constant pain...if you decide to do that, be proud, glad, and relieved, and know that you are doing him a good thing. I have done it many times in my 45 years of horses and many times I felt such relief and gratitude in the horse that had been suffering.

In the meantime, I would give him Succeed paste and GG daily. See if Patsy gives you any hope or insight at all.

Good luck. Dont be sad if you lose him. If you do, do a necropsy. I bet you find cancer, serious kissing spines, nerve problems, or ulcers all over, whatever. There is something very wrong.

Please post what happens.

Abby

[om]

I would agree with the Patsy thing. I had good luck with a homeopaathic tincture for Lyme when my horse was diagnosed. pm me if you'd like the number. My horse responded immediately, but he wasn't violent. Glanzen makes an ulcer product which is excellent called something like amiquell. Jingles!

[piaffe at x]

EPM?

[Moutaineer]

This sounds very like the position I was in with my horse two years ago.

With him, it wasn't jsut one thing, but a combination, that led to this physical breakdown.

First of all, he was selenium defficient--severely so, and he obviously has trouble metabolizing it as he is now on a selenium and E supplement full-time, and a fairly hearty dose of it. He went from being kinda cranky, touch-me-not, to tying up, and really, really sore. Dropped a ton of muscle in his back end, felt like he had knotted string rather than muscle back there.

Secondly, he picked up a virus, which knocked him back even further.

Thirdly, in an attempt to build him back up again, I changed his feed from a pellet that was based entirely on alfalfa, to Ultium.

At that point, his world almost ended.

To cut a very long story short, it turns out after many false paths, he is extremely allergic/reactive to soy.

Once I completely eliminated all forms of soy completely from his life (I have to check everything, supplements, treats, you name it.) I added sufficient selenium, plus magnesium to his diet, treated the ulcers that had been caused by the stress and the soy and all the meds we had been pumping into him to treat the symptoms, and he turned the corner.

It's been a long road back. There have been setbacks when well-meaning people have done dumb things. But he's doing very well now.

I merely offer this up in the spirit of encouragement and sympathy. It's so hard to know what the heck to do when faced with this kind of problem.

[bascar]

No answers, just {hugs}

[NexusCenter]

I'm sorry to hear about your horse's troubles. The picky eating and attitudinal issues sure make it sound like your horse is in pain. One of the things that stood out to me was what you said about the horse being ravenous for sugary food. We see that with horses with metabolic issues.

So one thing to consider is a dietary supplement which addresses that. We use and recommend Remission which contains magnesium and chromium. Here's a link to more info:

http://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html ... e2db9f7b2f

I'd also be interested in seeing pictures of his feet. SO many hoof problems go undiagnosed until it is way too late. Hoof pain could also cause 'just not rightness' that you see without the horse appearing head bobbing lame.

We also feed Equipride as a vit/min supplement that contains a digestive aid with outstanding results across the board with many horses.

I hope this is helps some.

[Posting Trot]

What about the de-worming history? Has the horse been Powerpacked recently, or is moxidectin part of your rotation? Encysted strongyles can cause chronic low-level colic and ulcer type symptoms, and many vets forget about them.

The powerpack would be worth doing, although I would run it by your vet first.

Good luck.

[mg]

My epsm horse was very unpredictable. I had never heard of epsm and treated him for everything under the sun. Probably spend close to 10,000 on him and a friend mentioned the epsm. Changed diet and .........voila' life is good. He is now steady as a rock and I trust him with kids now.
Whatever your horse is going through I wish you luck............ and Jingles.

[Pride]

For the gut issues, you might want to talk to your vet about trying him on some sucralate (also perscribed as sulcrafate). It is a cytoprotective agent that has really helped my horse with his gut related issues (he has colitis and mal-absorption problems). I noticed a world of difference after about 2 days of him being on the drug. He was also quite twitchy and sensitive when he was in a significant amout of pain from the colitis. Talk to your vet but it might be something to try.

[wildoats]

I'm so sorry your horse is suffering with unknown ailments. I third or fourth the recommendation to have Patsy Bullard do a hair analysis on him. I'm amazed the accuracy of her diagnosis & the effectiveness of her treatments--and the low cost of her services, herbs, & supplements.

Read the thread on Hair Analysis on the vet section. jm started it. It seemed like her mare had some of the same issues (not all) as your horse. She has been transformed by the treatment. Her mare also had a bad hip injury. Her mare's behavior was so bad that she was thinking about putting her down. Last fall they won their dressage championships! Quite a turnaround.

You can contact Patsy Bullard at 903/873-4442 or healthy.horse@yahoo.com. As jm suggested, ask for a rush. It's worth it. Good luck.

[Morgen]

Thanks guys. Sincerely. I appreciate this because everyone I know is kinda at a loss with all the typical avenues being explored now. I’ll cover a few really quick here;

Wormed in Oct with Ivermectin and then early Dec with Safeguard (and saw a days improvement then so we started the Ranitindine based on that). And we have seen a slight improvement to the *extent* of some of the dramas that were around towards mid-December. In combo with hay type changes. Fecal done last week was negative so we’re holding off until we deal with this. My plan was to powerpak but given the fecal and that he’s had very regular stools before and (now today) after the Doxy (didn’t get sloppy on the doxy, just softer)… I dunno about that.

Feet. Not great & never have been. He’s gotten bruises and 1 abscess before tho and there was nothing like this. He’s been barefoot most of his life. Has a bit of thrush in one heel that hasn’t healed. Vet and I examine that and (a) given that that was pretty much the only part of his body he’d let her touch and (b) that he’s trotting out in outstanding form… it’s also hard to imagine that’s the reason for mad spooking all the time like this suddenly.

Kissing spine/dosal muscle tissue damage is definitely a possibility. I did elicit a delayed muscle spasm-spook the other day by scratching behind his wither mid-back. It’s VERY suspect but formerly this horse has asked for muscle rubs. Now he “asks” for his hinny to be rubbed (which I do from outside the stall carefully, like with a long object to scratch/rub b/c who the heck knows what’ll make him jump/when). Again tho, we discussed the possibility of him breaking something while rolling or falling and she just found a few reasons why it might not be that -> plus it wouldn’t cause him to suddenly get wildly fickle about food. That’s sooooo uncharacteristic for him.

I would believe EPSM but he’s already half-way on the diet there and I’m not sure I’d like to experiment with oil while he’s so explosive. He floats between having too much and too little energy. EPM is one of the many things I looked up too… however his hind end action is as good as it’s ever been mostly.

Which brings me to the questions about food. Well that has definitely changed this year. (a) hay quality down, grass more sweet but OMG was he begging for his turn to get at it all year.. (b) everyone else (and he) got more Safe Choice grain, beet pulp and a small amount of hay stretcher pellets to help. Now the supplementing was getting experimented with by this fall when my good hay supply was beginning to disappear. I tried him on BOSS for a week maybe? I remember him really having tude with that so that stopped. Then I tried rice bran and again, forget that too. Hard to say if those were my only precursor indicators. However I’d just like to add that in his lifetime he’s had MUCH more grain (6 quarts a day unbeknownst to me at one time – ack!) and while he got spooky then, it wasn’t like this at all.

Soooo the vet and I discussed that and put him on Accel and I’d already gotten Quiessence shortly before we tried the Ranitidine. I currently have him at 1 scoop per day (split in two feedings) of the Accel lifetime http://www.smartpakequine.com/ProductCl ... egory=true and have been backing him away from the loading dose of Quiessence to 2 scoops per day which seemed to work at first but now.. eh.. http://www.smartpakequine.com/productcl ... Classid=17 (dunno why it says loading dose not applicable there as it does on my container but regardless -> he still was cranky and tense on it… just a tad less).

The good news is I was able to pull his blanket off tonight without drama. He is definitely *nicer* as of this PM. Temps aren’t going to change much and hopefully he won’t be too cold inside because I really feel like I need to know if he’s rolling at night and/or chewing up his right side still. He did spook/startle quite a bit this afternoon and inside his stall but wasn’t as wildly anxious as this morning. He also looked a tad more “there” than he did this morning. He’s not doing so many aimless wandering/searching activities although he still was wandering away from his (not half as much typically eaten but very thoroughly picked through) hay this afternoon.

For all his life he’s baffled vets and horse keepers with his extremely extreme reactions to things. For example he got a choke (it was witnessed pathology -> swallowed hay without chewing b/c grain was placed in front of him) as a 2yo… proceeded to nearly have seizures he spasmed whole-body-wise about it and progressed to diarrhea by the time the vet came. Was drenched in sweat and presented a picture of total exhaustion to the man who couldn’t believe it was *just* choke… and of course he did manage to swallow it in the process of the drama so we couldn’t even point to the minor lump in his throat we saw. Point being he doesn’t let pain go unnoticed much. It rarely comes with hostility towards me or anyone else unless it’s sharp (and you are poking at it causing it - even then it comes with warning). In his 7 years he’s had a LOT of physical issues and this is way way new and disconcerting. Again, like Moutaineer, I would completely believe that selenium deficiency was a big part of things… however the Accel should be helping even in the most minute way. I have been through so many different types of “toxicity” things online and his symptoms just don’t seem to fit. Yet he acts like he’s unable to get enough of something.

I would totally believe he’s got a raging ulcer that worsened because his immune system is down. And that it might take more than the average amount of GastroGuard to turn him around. And that absorption is poor… soooo maybe that’s mostly what it all is. I really hesitated to write this thread because after all this back and forth with the vet and my careful experimenting and observing to see what is/isn’t working… there is a slight improvement in demeanor/happy horse look. Yet I’m still seeing enough random spooking (and we have icey paths mind you) that I’m taking all precautions when bringing him in for example (stars and planets must be aligned – he’s so distracted about any farm activity).

So the ongoing distracted spooking (almost like a bored horse needing to get his yayas out -> but not quite & that is totally out of character for him anyhow to be like that... soooo it’s most certainly pain imo) and this food picky-ness is really what’s disturbing still. He is clearly saying "I do not feel good" at times and is still ravenous but only about some things (and I'm not even sure it's sugar entirely). I would happily give him more of those things (alfalfa and sweeter hay) except this tends to lead him to being more spooky/distracted etc etc. I'd completely believe he's got another cause besides ulcers causing malabsorption too.. let's hope the priobios helps. I did half a dose tonight. If he's not loudly gassy tomorrow I'll try another.

Beet pulp (sans molasses – the pellets) is never that exciting. But he used to eat it and always has. Now I’m putting his Quiessence pellets on top on one side (big pan) and Accel on the other (to give him the opportunity to choose). He’s eating those off the top but not touching much more of it. Only 1 quart soaked which is half of what he used to clean up within a few minutes. Oh, and I tried some soaked hay cubes (alfalfa timothy mix) for almost a week a few weeks ago… no appeal but they did get eaten eventually (although again, the alfalfa is suspect imo to causing him to have more extreme blow outs.. although it never did bother him in the past to eat in any form). I tried a hard cube of totally timothy verses a hard cube of straight alfalfa.. no interest in the timothy.

I have an aisle of various hays bought and borrowed from a vast variety of places. I literally let him sniff and choose. Only the sweet stuff/second cut. I will slowly be converting him over to that again in this week as I’m out of choices for reliably decent first cut hays anyhow.

It looks like I might have news from Patsy of the hair analysis this week so that’s a relief to get at least one more clue or answer.

God I’m SO sorry to ramble on and on guys but I skimmed and tried to answer many questions in this to address things folks brought up. I’m also wondering about things like entroliths and yes, cancers. And how exactly are those diagnosed?

[myboyzack]

Hi Morgen...

I hope the hair analysis will help solve some mysteries for you. I have never done it, but from the looks of the posters who have used it, it may help your boy.

Glad he is barefoot. Has he ever had 24/7 turnout? Sure makes my guy a lot happier than in a barn.

Have you ever completely cut out the supplements to make sure there is nothing irritating him (stomach or otherwise)?

How often do you change things up with his feed? I can tell you have tried hard and been very careful and have been at it for a long time, but sometimes its hard to keep track of changes you make, which as you know can affect them. Maybe start a spreadsheet of hay/supp/grain changes (if you haven't already).

Oil on top of my horse's pellets has helped my horse handle the cooler weather (not exactly CT weather), and he has kept wight on beautifully over the winter without hotness. His feed is somewhat comparable to Safechoice, but not exactly the same, great ingredients/ less fillers, but is a local feed made in Aiken SC.

Are you sure he has ulcers, e.g. had him scoped? Might save you some $ in the long run...

Just throwing some questions out there (that I'm sure you've already gone over and over) Jingles for your guy!

[jm]

I'm so sorry your horse is suffering with unknown ailments. I third or fourth the recommendation to have Patsy Bullard do a hair analysis on him. I'm amazed the accuracy of her diagnosis & the effectiveness of her treatments--and the low cost of her services, herbs, & supplements.

Read the thread on Hair Analysis on the vet section. jm started it. It seemed like her mare had some of the same issues (not all) as your horse. She has been transformed by the treatment. Her mare also had a bad hip injury. Her mare's behavior was so bad that she was thinking about putting her down. Last fall they won their dressage championships! Quite a turnaround.

You can contact Patsy Bullard at 903/873-4442 or healthy.horse@yahoo.com. As jm suggested, ask for a rush. It's worth it. Good luck.

Just want to clarify - never wanted to put the mare down....that was her filly (actually now a mare too!) The mare I wanted to tie to the mailbox and let the first person by have her. Then we did the Patsy thing and after 4 years of hell with the mare - I have the most wonderful horse - the one that won First Level Horse of the Year. The filly has mental health issues and she has now been home a year and - knock on wood - has been perfectly sane after Patsy's program - full of piss and vinegar under saddle, but sane

One more thing - if you think he may have been poisioned, you can also look into BioSponge by Platinum Performance.

[Morgen]

myboyzack, sorry -> missed that part of your question! Yes, he was on 24/7 turnout when this started actually. With a friend who got removed to safety as his attitude soured (paddock that was dividable so I closed the gate so the poor boy didn't get so picked on). That was the day after thanksgiving when I first saw the extremely explosive blowout that scared the living daylights out of me.. and btw disappeared a few hours later. Since then his friend has safely been beside him but in a paddock much closer to the barn in case (god forbid) he ever does that again.

I don't like to change up the feed fast like this at all. I tried the supps this early fall because he looked thrifty and was on grass (with a hay option too) 1/2 days... also was on the grain then until that blow out the day after Thanksgiving. At that point I stopped feeding grain cold & started proceeding like I was dealing with an ulcer in feed. I went through a period where I tried soaking the 2nd cut to remove the sugar and that seemed to help. Probably soaked any remaining nutrition out too tho so that's when I got him on the real antacids. And yes, for a few weeks we tried that to make sure nothing was upsetting his stomach. I'm just out of the good hay from '07. All I have is local 2nd cut (which everyone else loves and thankfully is doing fine on) and I can obtain a little more local 1st (but only about 15 more bales). My "good hay" guy is in NY and only got decent 2nd cut this year. It's all very expensive and I'm concerned about buying (no option) a tractor trailor full for everyone else and winding up needing to search the hills for more for him again too. There's only so much money in the life of an artist/barn manager. !

JM, I have considered the biosponge. But he's soo regular in manure. Even now despite the somewhat reduced intake. I'm very concerned about him getting backed up. How would we know if the bloodwork is almost normal (except the lowered WBC?). I knew of a horse that died this year from very suspect poisoning-neuro-like pathology and due to the farm activity a very thorough post-mortem work-up was done with zero answers.

I had a dog that had a rare LDL-deficiency genetic disease that slowly poisoned himself because his liver couldn't process toxins. This isn't quite like that (starving slowly into toxicity). However I just "feel" in my gut that there's something more he badly needs to balance out. Like tonight I held out two types of hay in handfuls and let him pick. He sniffs both VERY intently and then chooses the 2nd cut, the other one is like.. "bad" to him (and no other horse thinks so btw).. Why? UGH!

It will be a few more days before I've got him entirely on this second cut from this new place (where it's aromatically obviously less sweet at least). That is, barring that it makes him crazier in the next few days of course.

[Morgen]

I should add one more thing here as to why I/we aren't more focused on the typical neurological issues. In taking him out of his stall some days when he's in a spooky mood, I've had to close up the barn. If he's practically bolting out I'll walk him up and down the aisle a good deal first. It's tight in there, he has to turn sharply and has no problems doing so. In fact his spins and trots off in the pasture are pretty impressive too.

On days when he's been stuck in due to sleet/rain weather. I've hand walked him (with variations to keep it interesting) for 10mins or so. A few hand-jog steps too to make sure he's respectful. All very typical movement for him in there and no reluctance to take those jog steps on the concrete. I haven't felt he's sane/safe enough nor have we had the footing to trot hard up and down the longer sidewalk I've checked his soundness on in the past but these are fairly good ways with him to spot hoof and/or hind end soreness.

I am going to go off and read up on more ingestables though. I'm always suspicious of feeds in general. All this mixing from China & nevermind how batches of nearly anything can get contaminated always give me gray hairs. lol! -sighs-

[Posting Trot]

A fecal would *not* show the presence of encysted strongyles.

It would be a good idea to do a powerpack, but def. ask your vet.

Here's a brief rundown (in PDF) of symptoms: http://www.power-dose.com/PDF/EncystedSmallStrongyles.pdf

Note in particular this quote: "Typical acute clinical signs consist of diarrhea, weight loss, weakness, listlessness, anorexia, recurring colic, edema of the legs and ventral abdomen, and potentially death. Less severe subclinical signs such as decreased performance, poor feed utilization, dull hair coat, unthriftiness, or “ain’t doin’ right” may also be present. This clinical disease seems to be primarily reported in winter to early spring. It is worth noting that affected horses usually have been dewormed regularly."

[Moutaineer]

Have you run some blood to check Se levels? My horse still comes back on the low side of normal even when being supplemented with 2mg Se and E a day.

It also takes a while--about a month--for Se supplementation to start to show some effects.

You might need to get serious about adding some bigger doses. But DO blood test first. If the levels come back mid-range or above, you can cross it off the list (And at this point, I'd be making a list.)

I know I'm flogging this one a bit, and I'm sorry if I sound a bit obsessed, but it's just so damned familiar--even down to attacking a pasture-mate, and splatting the accupuncture vet.

Also, I'm sorry, I'm not clear, what's he specifically eating now apart from hay? Is he still on Safechoice or anything like that?

[Far Side]

Reminds me of a friends horse that is selenium deficient and she is also just starting the EPSM diet (didn't test for it) . . . she for some strange reason decided to deny her horse of vitamins and minerals last summer. Fed a handful of grain and vertially no vitamins last summer and that's when her horse got messed up.

Hence my question and I may have missed this part - where is he getting his vitamins from and how long has he been on that product? Hay and beet pulp don't have all the essential vitamins and minerals. So I would wonder

Selenium Deficiency or other mineral deficiency
EPSM
other neurological disorder like EPM, etc.

Have you done the selenium blood level test?

[Morgen]

I'd be happy to ask the vet to test for selenium. Hopefully Patsy's will show something if that's the case as I'll get that sooner.

This did show when he was getting grain and while I experimented with some fat supp add-ons (I'm thinking more of the Rice bran which has E for example and that the grain is supposed to have selenium for our area but who knows about grains - they do make me anxious) however. And honestly it was the most I'd had him on for a long time. It definitely might not have been enough vitamins for him, I'd believe it. I've already said I'm unhappy with the grass & hays that came in this year.

I've been looking through selenium deficiency symptoms and one big one that doesn't fit is muscle & shine & energy. He'd really bulked up nice for a while due to his uncharacteristic activity level. He's had surprising energy throughout all of this. Surprising like "lets spook! Ok - canter/trot around for a few minutes..." He's calmer than that. Has been his whole life. He has energy but he's never been one to spook and zoom around for a while. Even as late as Oct it took me a lot of effort to get him to be silly for a quick video. Then a month later I would never have encouraged it he seemed so high.

Still, he's crazy sensitive and again I'd totally believe it to be a nutritional deficit/toxicity. I'd also believe malabsorbtion could be the culprit.

I really don't know the names of the tests to suggest to the vet. She wasn't feeling like she could think of more but then again maybe she's trying to spare me. Still, with all that I'm buying around the state for hay at premium prices, I'd rather be targeting better. Suggestions of panels to request? & Will Patsy's analysis show more?

[Morgen]

One other thing that seems to be prominent in the discussion of selenium is that the horses tend to hold their heads lower and rest more? He only rests when he appears to be seriously disinterested in food... looks like he's hungry but hates all that's offered (which is a variety he's formerly at least liked). I wish low energy was the case. He's spent a lot of time with his head held at maximum and the light of fire in his eyes.

I've been going through pictures of him this year and previous ones. Here's an example I can give from 07:
http://www.artbymorgen.com/babypics/balloons/
Balloons flew into their paddock and bounced out. Very exciting stuff. Note that he doesn't have the look of terror or fiesty tude there.

Now in Nov 08 and moreso in Dec/Jan he's holding his head much higher than that, and looking much more alarmed, snorting and startling and fighting shadows... at tiny nothing things. Like a horse that's on stall rest.. except he's not. His coat and feet are better now though..

Anyhow, please do suggest the name of the test I can ask the vet to run. I would've thought she'd have done this with the CBC profile and blood work ups but???

[backyarder]

What diagnostic tests has your vet done..has he been scoped for an ulcer? Ultra sounded his belly for a mass ? These things can be done in your barn. How much is he turned out? Try feeding each type of feed in a separate feed tub ..let him decide which he likes and will eat. My old gelding will not eat feeds mixed together but cleans them all up if served separately. Can you keep his friend very close without actually being turned out together?
I can imagine your frustration, hugs coming your way....good luck.

[LeoApp]

Have you ever had his eyesight checked?

[om]

Some feeds contain arsenic, and I think it makes them aggressive. Patsy gives garlic for this, so if you suspect it might be feed related , it wouldn't hurt to give garlic until you get your results. Garlic is good for a host of issues and contains sulphur for joint support.

[jm]

Gosh - what a story. I feel for you as my filly is hyper-sensitive - the one I almost put down. Has he ever "checked out?" By this I mean has he ever spooked and ran wild as if nobody was home? My filly has had 4 episodes, to my knowledge, where she has "checked out." The first being when she was just a few months old, the last and worst being 1 1/2 years ago. She was being worked in hand by her trainer and just flipped out, got away from him and proceeded to run wild. Her eyes just glazed over. She ran around my front/barn pasture - with lead rope attached - and went to run into her stall. She ran in the back door and never stopped. She blew right through the front wall of her stall, a 4 ft. high wall of 2x6's screwed in with 3" deck screws. She ended up in the aisle and proceeded to try and jump the next stall wall in front of her. She broke 2 boards and fell into that stall. Got up and ran out and headed for my back field. Gate was closed but she was going anyway. She tried to jump the 4 1/2 ft. high no climb with board on top and missed. She broke the board going over and the no climb de-gloved her left front leg. She fell on the other side, got up and ran HARD for a solid 10 minutes. I tell you - it was one of the worst days of my life and by far the worst "horse day" of my life. My beautiful filly - my upper level hopeful - was "crazy." There is much more to the story - all the vet drama afterwards trying to sedate her, after the vet sewed up her leg she came out of the anethesia VERY badly, fell 8 times and totally ripped the leg back open. We ended up going to the hospital. When she was released 6 days later, my trainer picked her up and took her to his farm where she stayed for 5 months.

When she came back home last January, I swabbed her and sent her off to Patsy. Here is what was found, copied from my post in the hair thread:

Mattie - the problem child - got her results back a week ago Monday. Boy, she is a total mess Her herbs came this past Monday. Here is what was found with Mattie. Her herbs for each are in ( ) :

Vit. C - low, vit. C calms the adrenals. Hers were "unregulated" causes a spike in adrenalin and in cortisol. (Vit. C)

Essential Fatty Acids were low (flax - I had to increase the amount I was giving to 6 oz.)

Digestive enzymes - low (digestive enzymes)

Probiotic - low (Probios)

Ph was very acidic (Probios and the dig. enzymes)

She also has arsenic build up (like Mingo) that was aquired at birth and also she got some from when she was at the trainers. (garlic flakes)

She has insecticides (multi gland supp)

She has mouth and stomach ulcers that have been there about 20 months. (comfrey powder)

Liver toxins and weakness in liver tissues. This can result in dominace/anger, increased fight or flight and irritability (Liver cleanse)

High Anxiety (anxiety relief)

Kidneys are weak. In Traditional Chinese Medicine the kidney represents fear. (multi gland)

Progesterone - low (chasteberry)

Seratonin - low (gota kola powder)

Structurally she is a mess - after all she has been through - I am not surprised at that. Patsy found some damage to her tendons, ligaments in her left leg, She will go on Grapeseed pwoder for this as well for her nervous system and for the scar tissue on the left leg. She has TMJ - common with arsenic build up, her poll, atlas, axis, sternum, her lower lumbar, sacral and coccygeal vertebra are messed up. She was seen by the chiro for the first time since coming home after I sent in her hair sample, but Patsy tells me that with arsenic build up - adjustments have a hard time staying "put." Mattie and Mingo are due to be chiropracted again on Monday.
_________________________________________________________

I would put a bet on it that his adrenals are unregulated which can cause a spike in adrenalin. Can't wait to hear what Patsy finds with your guy. My filly is doing so much better.

[jm]

Forgot to add probably one of the most important things Patsy found........the filly's brain was "out." Patsy said when the brain is out it can shift and cause pressure. I had to do some bodywork on her head to put it back in. It was weird the first time I did it. The response I got from her was unreal.

Also - I would not be the least bit surprised if she finds liver toxins in your guy. Look back at all the stuff he has been given. The liver toxins can increase agression and the fight or flight response. Low seratonin is most likely a given as well. That is where I saw probably the biggest response was when I supplemented for the low seratonin.

While you wait for Patsy please do the following:

Since this guy is picky with his food, get yourself some syringes. If you can handle a 60cc, get those, if not get the 35cc. I can tell you right now, you will probably have to syringe some of this stuff. The digestive enzymes are REALLY, REALLY nasty and I can bet he will get those. Also, get some raspberry jam to mix the nasty stuff with. Good thing your horse is craving sugar which also could be a sign of a yeast overgrowth. Check with Patsy if he does have a yeast overgrowth to be sure you can use the jam.

Now you will ready to go right when you get his supplements.

Last thing (I keep remembering stuff!) Take a look at this article on herbs for nervous horses. Once he is through his program and has been re-checked, you can look at doing on of these. You can ask Patsy to test him on the nervines, but I am not sure if she has all of them. I know she has blue vervain, which is what my filly tested for. I put my mare on a 3 month course of hops and passion flower and the filly went on a 3 month course of blue vervain and passion flower. I tested these on my own as I know how to do muscle testing. Here is the link: http://www.herbal-horsekeeping.com/arti ... horse.html

[Mischa]

I am so saddened to hear of the trials you are experiencing. I went through a similar frustrating journey and know how exhausting and heartbreaking it can be.

Some years ago I had a horse that exhibited some of the symptoms you mentioned, although the onset was much slower over the course of several years. I got Caleb as a 2-yr old. I did all his training, starting his under saddle work at 4. He was a dream to work with: sensible, willing and kind.

However as he got older he became more of a handful to ride and I finally decided he was just too much horse for me. When he was 11 I sent him to a jumper trainer for evaluation (Caleb was from super jumper lines, Calypso, etc.). He loved to jump and did it extremely well, but after a couple of weeks the trainer had her vet check his vision. Discovered he was totally blind in his left eye! I took him to Ohio State for an ophthalmic work up and they must have thought I was crazy because his vision was completely normal. Then they did a neuro exam: also normal. Unfortunately at that time OSU didn't have a CT-scan.

Once Caleb was home again I noticed more changes in his behavior. He would panic in his stall as though claustrophobic, climbing the walls and becoming so dangerous that no one would enter his stall except me. When turned out he appeared to hallucinate. He would seem to see something at the far end of the pasture and gallop down to check it out.
When he got there he'd look around and then go through the same routine again to the other end of the field, repeating this pattern until he tired. My formerly gentle, calm horse became a bundle of nerves ready to explode at the least provocation.

At this point he had become a danger to himself and others and I decided the most humane thing to do was to put him down. Since he was insured he was taken to a vet hospital which had a CT-scan machine. The necropsy revealed a major blockage to the blood supply in the front of the brain (the Ring of Willis). Apparently any increase in blood pressure would shut off circulation to parts of his brain. This helped explained the intermittent blindness and erratic behavior.

While I think checking with Patsy is a good idea I would also hope you could find a way to get your boy to a good vet hospital for a workup.

Good luck!!

I second the vision check.

[Morgen]

Yeah, we went over his eyes and responses to a lot (he was guarding his entire right side abdomen terribly so the vet had me do the touching).

Mischa, I’m so sorry to hear your story.

Well today he was happier at least. It IS like he’s got a terrible adrenaline high too much of the time. Some of these stories remind me of how he is vaguely. “Checking out”.. I know exactly what you mean. He did that in the beginning of Dec and it was truly scary. He wasn't TODAY at least. I mean that's the part that alarms me. This horse shows high focus on the humans all the time... kinda tends to bother some that he's soo into what people are up to. I'd rather see alertness like today than zoned out anxiety / apathy / moods like a month ago.

For instance today he was literally trying to climb out of his stall when he knew it was time to go out. Head over the bars of the door, had to prod him back (with humor) to get him to let me in. See today though he was sane enough to hold his head low and not shake it aggressively in impatience. He walked reasonably beside me and didn’t blindly rush. Mind you this is a horse who is normally happy staying in with the others… and we have plenty more “stuck inside” weather coming so I need to not see more of this. All the same, not panicing to get out is a relief. I can’t tell you how much work it is to get my mindset right to handle a horse that’s panicing and barging for no good reason. That stopped a few weeks ago but the urgency is back now. Still, he’s more pleasant about it atm.. Sooooo I consider this an improvement. I don’t mind handling wicked hot horses as long as they have focus and aren’t angry or checked-out-scared. I’ve seen angry & checked out scared in his eyes far too much over the past few months. There are times I wouldn’t go in to his stall even to feed. Fortunately I decide when feeding happens for everyone so I just tinker around until his apprehensive terrors pass. A couple of my boarders have witnessed a few episodes (and they are like “episodes” in that if you wait a few hours he’s sane again). They’re something to behold. I don’t envy those of you who’ve had worse “terrors” in a horse. But if they get worse yes, walls of wood and screws wouldn’t contain him and I cannot let it get to that point period. Fortunately we seem to be getting a little somewhere.

Question; he IS beefier through the chest and butt. No doubt about it. And that was maybe the only precursor “symptom” I had before he started getting grumpy/unpredictable. I found myself going through hell to fit a blanket to him (now needs an 84 in neck/front but is only an 82 in length). And yes, it’s like his adrenals/adrenaline levels are on far too much of the time now. Obviously according to JM I might get an answer soon on that. Anything else I can do? Hell, I’d go feed him an orange asap if I thought it would help. Lol! Fwiw, unsweetened apple sauce when I was trying to get the Ranitidine down wasn’t too much of interest. Apple chunks in sweet syrup (drained off) were.. but the sauce (even w/o the drug) wasn’t all that to him. Still, C is a vitamin I’m happy to throw at anything (damn hard to get toxic on that). Especially now that his tummy seems more typical of him again mostly (one small nip mark at the girth but not all over like a few weeks ago).

[wildoats]

I really feel for you. And your poor horse. I do hope you get some answers soon, and that he will be on the road to recovery.

jm-I apologize for confusing Mingo & Mattie. And congratulations on your competitive success with Mingo.

[Morgen]

PM Update/No real news;

5 days into the GastroGuard and (not looking at notes) on Vit mix/etc… was happier in the AM than he was this evening. Perhaps a tad less bargy/excitable this evening but not much. Definitely more moody again. Wasn’t fun to blanket. Gave me a very nasty look outside when I walked around to his right side to pick up a pan out in the paddock. Definitely more gnawing marks on his right side.

Tested feeding interests by putting out pan of just some more of his daily Quiessence dose (given the nasty pan look I decided to do this an hour before I brought him in instead of waiting for evening feed). On the other side I put a glob of the unsweetened (not spiced either) apple sauce. He avoided that entirely except to nudge some out of the way to find every last Quiessence pellet.

Did eat through more than yesterday of less-exciting 1st cut hay. Not all however and quite a bit (plus and entire flake) was strewn all about the snow. He was similarly this way about it inside.

New behavior I just recalled observing tonight too. Scraping teeth on wall. Never seen that.

Talked with vet briefly about possibly doing another blood panel to test for these deficiencies. She’s looking up what she can find & is also giving me a nutritionist specialist’s name (gal from PA? Anyone know?).

I have a barefoot trimmer that’s coming on Friday. I don’t feel like he’s safe for her to trim however sadly. We’ll see. She’ll be there anyhow & he might be cycling into a mellow phase at that point. He’s clearly been cycling more and more rapidly but some things (like eating the other hays and a tad more beet pulp) have shown up.

It’s like his very worst behavior issues from his whole life are just coming back on and off. Vet is almost not convinced it’s not just training/attitude except he’s also burying his head in the corner and doing other weird stuff to clearly show he is unhappy/hurting. He wants to be with friends of course. That makes me the saddest because he goes from loving to hating his neighbor (open stall bars).

Anyhow, I didn’t use the probios tonight. He got a full dose in the last 24hrs. He had a good deal of gas this morning and that concerns me. I asked the vet about PowerPacking him (I will have to order from SmartPak since not one feed store in a 50mi radius seems to have it as I've checked over the last month in my varied travels for his hays). At this point she feels it wouldn’t hurt anything further.

I dunno. I’ll continue to listen and digest more tips/suggestions tho and I really appreciate all the support guys. I really am just not.. I dunno..ok. I’ve seen horses have great turnarounds from much more obviously worse but I’m terribly pessimistic about this. That’s not helping either so I’m trying not to stare at him when he sees me (he’s very much begging me for something and I just don’t know what he want’s/needs). I wish I could give him relief.

[jm]

"slc" used to post here and she is a nutritionist in PA. She is very good. Do a search for her posts. If it is her, tell her to come back to UDBB - we miss her!!

[CanDoPony]

May I suggest aloe vera juice? In is loaded with vitamins, assists ulcers to heal and promotes good digestion. Your horse may be experiencing hind gut pain due to his food not getting digested enough before it gets there. So it sits there and ferments. It could be caused by any number of things from his nerves, lack of good bacteria or stress. Sometimes it's worse than others-when it hurts a little bit he won't want to eat, when it hurts a lot he'll be panicky. Pain in the hind gut will make a horse very very spooky. Pain causes the brain to release adrenaline as well.
Bad digestion also causes mal absorption and allergies. Mabey one reason his feet aren't great and he's so sensitive to meds.
It's cheap too. About $5 a gallon at the grocery store.

[Morgen]

Interesting. I got off the phone with Patsy earlier tonight. She was wonderful to work with btw, thanks guys.

The 2 biggest issues (she said he was a mess) she said she “saw” were;
Massive yeast overgrowth & kidney/bone spur (in head).

There were a lot more things there that Patsy “saw” but I’d completely buy the candida issues as a very big villain in the story. It would explain why I kept feeling like worms or some sort of microbe (ulcers of course and their helio whatever the heck it is are one I’ve discussed with the vet) was outcompeting him for his food and making him a bloat-bag. This past year and a half really I’ve been bothered more and more by it and agonizing over my worming schedule and again, those feeds….

I’ve been googling and reading ever since. It would completely make sense with the timing at least. The thrush that correspondingly started up when I started feeding more grain AND he was on high sugar grass. The angry need for sugar period. I used to work for an equine nutritionist… I should know these things but it was all a bit much for me at times. What saddens me most is that the grains I was feeding him so much of are all supplemented with yeast. –sighs- There’s a lot to it… here’s some interesting reading if anyone’s interested;
http://countywebapp.unl.edu/counties/we ... ers-health
http://thyroid.about.com/cs/relatedcond ... andida.htm
http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/ ... lekey=1887

Well actually I guess I closed the others but if you google around it's some interesting reading that matches his symptoms better than most things except ulcers (which aren't responding as fast as they should unless they're insanely bad or were only caused by the Doxy & his declining appetite before the 5th was something else that's only responding to the vitamins/minerals he's getting now...).

It’s so funny b/c when the vet came out on the 5th I said to her “quick let’s grab a urine!!!” because I’d been asking about kidney stones. I forget why she felt that wasn’t it (and not to bother grabbing it – as if we had time anyhow). HOW exactly DO vets diagnose kidney stones btw? If it was a matter of a mere urinalysis at this point I’d believe it. Btw, I just searched this thread and I don’t believe I said that before here or anywhere (not in my note to them that was saved either). Huh.

Anyhow, the bone spur, I’m going to dare my vet to take an x-ray I think to see (hey, it’s worth the dare as a good way to get a free confirmation eh?). Didn’t someone here have a horse with this elsewhere in the body? She saw his in the skull causing a headache. That I’d just simply believe given how he’s acted half the time (that he’s got a RAGING headache a lot)..

When I was a working student of dressage I got a bone spur. Right at the bottom of my seat bones you plug in when you ride. It was visible externally, the size of a marble and outrageously painful to sit on. I thought I was scot-free from having to ride for a while (I was getting ring sour). No dice though; spent most of my time after that in a half seat. Eventually I think I just pretended it was gone and it really did go away kinda fast (which fascinates me still to this day).

My horse was less spooky overall today. And they were small starts and looky things rather than shooting off and running around for a few minutes. He also didn’t wander away from his food nearly as much as the previous days. It’s day 6 of the GG. He’s lower energy (ought to be with his decrease in calories), and better appetite (finally). His righteous indignation at things that bother him is declining somewhat. He was still quite a grump however. He’s still searching for that magical something in the few flakes of hay that he suddenly disliked (first cut was fine then one day it just wasn’t edible – didn’t matter the bale really just the sweet smelling factor). Drinking a pretty big amount. Bowels in good order and less “pre-colic” demeanor (I say that because he won’t let you miss the fact that he’s colicing if he really is – it’s been years now since he has, *that I know of*, but he’s got a “melodramatic” way of letting you know… vets’ words, yes plural, not mine).

I hope this means we’re on the upswing and that the GG, some of the vitamins, Quiessence, or something is getting through and helping there. I fear they may be in quite a bit over the next 48hrs due to snow & wind chill/speeds being unbearable for the group tomorrow & Friday.

Patsy said she didn’t see anything ulcer-like at all. That said, I can’t say I’m ready to not use the tubes (that I’ve –gag) already bought. That and simply that he’s cribbing a little less and again, staying at his hay pile with more attention and interest. Sure it could be the vitamins/minerals alone but I’m just not ready to push him backwards.

I also contacted that nutritionist vet through her web site. I have no idea if she’s the famous (infamous apparently?) slc. I tried searching the UDBB archives and didn’t get her real name. Someone will have to PM me.

I can see myself completely as one of those people one day who obnoxiously tells the vets what to do… -sighs- I soooooo don’t want to distrust typical medicine but I can’t help it. I really DO have my doubts and hesitations about so many things they throw at us. I’m a product of a weird cross between working in the vet & pharma industry and working with and around holistic practioners. Hrmmm…

[LeoApp]

slc was a computer programmer in Ohio, unless she moved and changed her profession.

Anyway ...I hope you find the solution that makes your horse feel good and happy again. Poor guy sounds utterly miserable.

[jm]

Ya know - I was gonna guess a possible kidney stone with the way he grabs at his right side. They are horribly painful. A bone spur on his skull - wow that is a doozie but also would make sense with his anxiety. Do you know if he has ever hit his head? And another ahhh...ha - there WAS a yeast overgrowth as I kind of suspected in one of the above posts. That certainly explains that sugar craving of his. Sugar feeds yeast. He has a massive overgrowth and that yeast is HUNGRY for more sugar to feed it.

Quite a few of the horses tested from the BB had either a bone spur or kidney stone.

My mare - the one who started this whole thing - had a bone spur between her 4th and 5th sacral vertebrae. It was off to the right side and would rub the tendons and ligaments making her sore. The day Patsy called me almost a year ago to tell me her results, I almost fell on the floor. My mare bucked in the canter for almost 4 years. Her hip and sacrum were always going out on her and she could not hold an adjustment for more than a few weeks before it went back out.

My mare took a bad fall almost 5 years ago, 2 weeks after she foaled the "mental" one She landed very hard on her right hind end - just wiped out hard. From that day forward, she was never the same. Vets never found anything from a general "looky see" however she travelled very haunches right after that. With each chiro visit, she did look to be getting a bit straighter but the bucking fits in the canter continued on. No one could find what was wrong. After $4,000 in vets and diagnostics is when I gave up but then I found Patsy. Sure I could have taken her back to the lameness vet who already had charged me $1,000 just for all the hind leg stuff including hock injections, x-rays from stifles down etc. He told me if the injections did not help, bring her back to look at the stifles - plain and simple, I could not afford another $1,000 to throw at the stifles. I do not know how much I would have ended up spending when someone finally thought about looking at her dang hips/sacrum.

Anyway, after giving her the acid-a-cal for the spur, I finally cantered the mare about 3 weeks after starting the supplement. I was ready for the bucking and it never happened! It has been a year now and the mare has not bucked since. She feels incredibly strong behind - still a little weak on the right side, but I can just feel how much stronger this mare is. She also has held her adjustment to the hip. She may be a teeney bit out of alignment every now and then, but for the most part, she has held it for this past year.

So............eventhough the naysayers say bone spurs can't be dissolved, I have absolutely no other explanation as to why my mare, after 4 years of bucking sprees, stopped suddenly and has not done it since before we started the acid-a-cal. I did not x-ray to confirm it being there. Frankly, I just couldn't afford it. I do know quite a few people though whose structural misalignments were found by Patsy and then confirmed through x-ray. That is about all the proof I needed

When you get a chance....please post all the stuff Patsy found. This guy's case will be so interesting to follow.

I sure hope this helps him. I am confident you are going to see some good changes in him

[Morgen]

Well I'll tell ya.. if he wasn't happier he'd be utterly impossible right now. Today on the way there my gas line froze. About 20ft from the driveway. So I was later than usual (ok, about 1/2 and hour to get that carcass out of the road.. but they know). Then I didn't put them out until this afternoon.

Last week he would have been losing his mind at that point. Dose 7 on the GG and he's shown a vast improvement. Another half dose of the probios too. Since I was stranded for 8hrs with only really a few of normal chores out there I was even able to spend a tad bit of quality time with him. I was able to touch him all over his left side but then he did move away a bit. That's just such a far cry from last week it was death threats, major spooks and real efforts to bite (totally out of character and nothing he's done ever his whole life) for even trying to touch him mid-section.

When outside he got silly eventually for a bit. When ALL the other horses did over snowplowing down the farm lane. He was a tad high for a while but I tossed out another flake and he happily went back to eating it and stayed there. Whereas before, he couldn't come down for hours after something of excitement last week and couldn't focus in the least on food for more than a mouthful.

So here's to hoping (no offense to Patsy) that this was the grand-daddy of ulcers primarily. If I can get him sane like this for a longer time I'll make the appointment with the acupuncture woman who's done wonders for him with much smaller issues in the past too. I already know though that if I can't touch him she certainly can't.

I gotta ask jm more questions but I'll pm them. Tx Leoapp, yes, he was and it was heartbreaking that we couldn't seem to pinpoint it at first.

Meanwhile, 2 bottles of dry gas and 1 of super fuel filter cleaner and please also give a wee jingle for my big blue babe "mount" too while yall are at it? lol! I really need to drive 1hr tomorrow to pick up more of that super special hay he's so fond of. That was supposed to be todays chore and it's not going to be any warmer tomorrow either... the fuel filter is down underneath (tx Dodge ). I can't again until Monday when we'll be back with somewhat higher temps again... and that's cutting it soooo close. argh!

[jn]

Maybe "slb" who has posted here a ton on nutrition...not slc, who hasn't been here for years...at least that we know of

Well, best wishes with all of this. Last year I bought a "bomb proof anyone who can sit can ride traffic safe" yadda yadda horse that was supposed to help me with a severe confidence loss. Was good for a bit then gradually went more and more mental. Wiggle your fingers in his direction, and he'd about collapse with fear trying to get away. Ridiculous behavior. Hadn't ridden him is quite a while..too scary. Vets were looking at me with crazy eyes as I kept insisting there was something really wrong with him, NOT an attitude problem. Poor horse was so sweet, and there he was looking at me with terror in his eyes.
Got his diet down to hay/alf pellets/BOSS, about the best he had been. Then someone suggested the oil, which I started on a Sunday. By Wednesday he was like a new guy, and he is now back to being thoroughly cute and I am back to riding him. He quit freaking, he quit tripping, quit spooking. I spent days trying to spook him, the most he did was levitate 1/4 inch. Best we can figure is that my pasture and hay are more high octane than his previous, and as he got sugared up, he just derteriorated.
So, while I am not trying to suggest this would fix your horse, as I have obviously never seen him and barely had a clue about my own, but I guess I just offer the story as one where somebody did actually find something to help and get to return to happiness.
Best wishes to finding his "thing"

[Morgen]

Well I spoke too soon on Thurs b/c on Saturday he did have another episode. Characterized by decreasing appetite before then. I've been online with the vet but it's really starting to look terribly neurological/chemical. He's less energetic which helps to see that he's more alarmed and then later very clearly just aggressive towards sounds primarily.

It's not looking good. I tried to get to the PO on Fri b/c I really was all keyed up about her herbs but honestly, after Sat & then today with the post-episode cycle I'm not sure I'm willing to go through another round of 'mad horse'. Even though it was milder and he seemed to recover his appetite faster afterwards and be less wiped out from it... the cycles are coming much faster now. And god forbid if he gets stronger again and THEN has a fit of rage again like that first time.

It's been 9-10 days now of GastroGuard and maybe he did have an ulcer at first but now he's just.. having fits of anxiety and anger. It's really scary. Sat I had to stuff him in his stall and press hard to hold the door closed because a piece of poop was blocking it and he was trying to escape back out. A few hours later he was just excessively grumpy jumpy. Today he was just aggressive, sour & normal interspersed.

Only a couple people have witnessed the 'rages' phase. People must think I'm insane and that he's just a soiled brat because he's rarely in his worst form when folks are around.. I dunno. It's so hard to explain to folks how "this is NOT how my horse reacts to things normally".

Even my friend/past caretaker of his thinks that something more might be looked into so I don't regret an "ultimate decision" ....But honestly? He's being scary like Jekyll/Hyde. Even though through this last one I was able to basically control him. Why??? Why is he doing this?? Why are they coming faster?

If the vet can't come up with something to correspond my more tightened synopsis of symptom cycles I'm not sure I know what I'll do. I'll hopefully talk to her tomorrow morning.

I'm just not looking forward to the next episode & may just bring in horses in the middle of the day if I spot one coming on. Hell, they were in today, if he's crazy tomorrow morning (believe it or not, that's not normal for him - he's not one to be anxious to go out even after a few days) they may stay in until it passes and/or the vet can get out. Depending on the degree of his need to escape the stall. The only indicator I have pre-episode really is signs of claustrophobia/slight tension.

Sorry to sound so dire but the increasing frequency is really alarming now. I'd bet he had given himself an ulcer after or during some of the first few episodes and that lead to the red-herring we screwed around with at first.

The other confusing aspect to it has been that the episodes are getting just a tad milder. a) because I'm sort of able to predict them b) because I've cut out anything with sugar in his diet I can and c) because he'd HAD been loosing his appetite for a while and getting more lethargic overall.

What I'm worried about is that if c) was the biggest reducer in the episodes then with eating more since Sat & the vitamins as he has been I may be looking at a much more dramatic episode next time.

Jm, I know I wrote yesterday about the carb thing & his possible yeast overgrowth issue. Unfortunately today he just blew a lot of that theory out of the water by still being aggressive Jekyll/Hyde all day while his appetite seemed to be improving vastly and his attitude didn't correspond to body touching at all. He feels a little better but he's being just weird.

Anyhow, I'm strangely numb about it all right now. I just need an answer. I'm worried for the other horses & well, myself too (!) & not knowing what this is.

[bascar]

Have you considered a brain tumor? I don't know if there is *any* test that can tell you for sure until after, well, after, but my mare had an elevated white blood cell count. She would 'lose' it. Seriously and violently.

Wishing you well.

[Morgen]

I have from the beginning. Basically that was my first call to her - that I suspected it. Some of the initial presentations weren't very consistent with that I guess? Although now things may be different? I've asked her to compare the patterns with the bloodwork & the point at which we took his blood (about 48hrs post-episode peak). His WBC count was low when she saw him.

[jm]

Have you considered animal communication? Many do not believe, I still am "on the fence" about the whole thing but I have used one a few times in the past and yes, there were some things that the AC *just.could.have.not.known* beforehand. It all depends on how much further YOU want to go.

In the end - if you end up putting him down - please consider donating him or have necropsy done. This is just too unusual. If you have it in you, at least try the first stage of Patsy's program for the kidney stone, bone spur on the skull and yeast overgrowth. If no improvement, I really do not know what else you can do. You have thrown everything at him.

One last question...............has he ever been "normal?" Was he ever ridable? (o.k. that was 2 questions!)

Bless you for staying with him this far. *Something* in the pit of your stomach is telling you he can be helped - that there is something no one has found yet. Go with that feeling for as long as you can muster. ((((hugs))))

[Morgen]

Believe it or not, he was my first breeding and my "forever" horse. I foaled him out, (he was a diastocia) and we really have had a great unspoken bond his whole life. People joke that he's my "kid". He's a "mommas boy" normally and occassionally a bit of a brat but utterly manageable just 'silly feeling' nonsense for others too in the past, and those times of being silly were super rare. Nevermind all the hypersensitivity. It's not "I'm pent up" hypersensitivity at all. It's "I hurt" or "I'm really mad" which is just not like him.

I rode him at first until he started having gait issues that were diagnosed as asymmetries. That's a long story in and of itself. Suffice to say, even when he was saddle sore & being fitted, or super hot from the cold weather, he was totally clear but sweet and unspooky. For example I was trotting by my boyfriend one time and he LUNGED out from the rail and goosed me on the butt. My horse didn't flinch or bat an eye (I of course laid into my boyfriend about wild movements when people were riding green horses). He was better than "normal" he was a stellar good citizen even back this summer. He was the last horse I'd bring in when a thunderstorm was coming because he'd be the sanest if bolts & thunder started up. I have had the mispleasure of bringing him in in a few already going in the past few years and despite fear he'd totally look to me in times of distress. Now a few months later and he's turning aggressive towards ME when a plow goes by? (something he hears/sees frequently).

My only clue that this was starting was when the woman who helps me (so I can take a day off here or there) told me he was a tad more "fresh" than she'd ever seen. Back at the start of Nov. I'd seen a few incidences of a little head toss before that (seemed like bratty tude). It was here and there for a bit and then suddenly he just lost his mind one day 3 weeks later. Aggression just was never part of his typical self.

I worry that I have "caretaker's" syndrome with him where I'm getting tired of catering to these crazy needs and fits. Then conversely, I just wonder if I'm strangely sane about it (after having had many a crying jag about it too). Because honestly? I love my horse and always will but I don't feel like I should put my life or others' in jeopardy. Nor do I like the many unhappy moments we can't help him with. I do feel like we may find an answer with the right diagnostic or therapies (including possibly Patsy's?) but it just feels like there's getting to be less and less time and I may get hurt.

It's so hard to explain the "episodes" to most people for some reason. The best overall synopsis I can give is that it's a bit like rabies (but not) and a bit like locoweed poisoning (but not quite either b/c he moves so well.. and somehow that makes him a helluva lot more dangerous). One woman said "oh he looks like he just feels great" when he was spazing out.. except that he was stressing for no apparent reason and inconsolable and high headed/wild eyed. That's not how he moves when he's happy, he plays a lot yes.. but this is him playing; http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_HxoPMS3VHZ0/S ... pstrip.jpg (from Oct). Now he looks like someone is chasing him around with a plastic bag or fire crackers. Even in his stall. When he plays he stops to see if you saw him and often goes back to eating right away. (editing to add - now he can't seem to come down from his anxiety to eat or do anything normal for a while).

Which is why I think the ulcer was secondary to whatever is causing this anxiety/aggression.

[Mischa]

I'm so sorry to hear that things seem to be accelerating. Your mention of Jekyll and Hyde really struck a chord because that is exactly what Caleb was like. As his conditioned worsened he also seemed to cycle faster and faster which is what finally made me decide to euthanize him.

Reading your account brings back so many memories! I absolutely know what you are going through because I've been there: so much sadness and uncertainty, and the anxiety of what awaited me at the barn each day. Although Caleb's condition proved to be incurable , I had the comfort of knowing I had done everything possible to try to help him. Only you can decide what's best for your horse, but it sounds like you've done your very best and been a loving caretaker to your dear boy. No horse could ask for more.

[Morgen]

He seemed very confused, disoriented and anxious this morning. I'm really distraught myself.

Talked with vet about final options before things get too dangerous. There was some aggression too but moreso just a horse that is constantly unfocused.

Wish us both inner peace please. Thank you.

[Sorrento]

Oh Morgen I'll heed your wish and think much inner peace for the both of you! And Mischa said it so well . . . no horse could ask for more.