Catherine Haddad - playing the accordian video - discuss?

[Dressage Art]

Furthermore, while I do not support hyperflexion, I also do not equate it with low, down and round. I resent the misuse of labels.

Sief was calling his very public method of training "low, down and round" from 2000 - for 10 years already. For Sief, it's the same as rollkur, the same as hyperflexion - this is the method that Sief and his students use.
Anky: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YODFSUs8_zw
Anky: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSVmn...eature=channel

If you think that Sief is misusing the LDR label, can I ask you if you are supporting Sief's training method?

[pammy deux]

Double post, sorry

[namaste]

Many of my friends, however, belong to these various groups. I like to network with them. And because I am American and the last time I looked it was a free country, I feel at liberty to join whatever group I choose.

Do I understand you correctly that you are saying that you joined Facebook group "PRO-LOW-DEEP-AND-ROUND" to network with your friends? This is hyperflexion support group - just offered with a more palatable sause!

PRO-LOW-DEEP-AND-ROUND Groupe for all riders and trainers that have the currage to show that they appreciate the training techniques LOW DEEP AND ROUND. http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=3 ... 5476607441

It's confusing, since you didn't join the Facebook anti-rollkur group to network with your friends...

I'm guessing she is friends with many of the top riders on that list and there are probably less of her friends on the other list because she only shows in Europe. You have to remember she lives in Germany and competes at the highest level of the sport. I don't think she needs to explain herself but she did say she does not believe LDR is the same as hyperflexion.

[namaste]

Furthermore, while I do not support hyperflexion, I also do not equate it with low, down and round. I resent the misuse of labels.

Sief was calling his very public method of training "low, down and round" from 2000 - for 10 years already. For Sief, it's the same as rollkur, the same as hyperflexion - this is the method that Sief and his students use.
Anky: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YODFSUs8_zw
Anky: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSVmn...eature=channel

If you think that Sief is misusing the LDR label, can I ask you if you are supporting Sief's training method?

Dressage Art who really cares and quite frankly it is really no ones business what some supports or does not support.

I'm also guessing she will not be back but she said she would be happy to answer questions posted on her blog.

[ainwen]

Furthermore, while I do not support hyperflexion, I also do not equate it with low, down and round. I resent the misuse of labels.

Sief was calling his very public method of training "low, down and round" from 2000 - for 10 years already. For Sief, it's the same as rollkur, the same as hyperflexion - this is the method that Sief and his students use.
Anky: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YODFSUs8_zw
Anky: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSVmn...eature=channel

If you think that Sief is misusing the LDR label, can I ask you if you are supporting Sief's training method?

Dressage Art who really cares and quite frankly it is really no ones business what some supports or does not support.

Apparently Dressage Art cares or she wouldn't have asked. And if people think it's no one's business, they don't have to answer.

[pippi longstocking]

It had occured to me before, but I didn't bring it up---but how does anyone know whether a name listed on the pro this and that facebook are in fact put there by that person?

I'm sorry, I have to agree, the opining on this forum is really really bad and in some cases quite harmful. People make comments to much on the fly without enough consideration for the vastness of differences and ease of misinterpretation of the various "media" used to present and there context---I mean you can take some pics or vids of just about anyone and have them look AWFUL and then be there in person and have it look totally different--people forgot that recorded media alters the image a lot from real world. I cringe all the time at some of the advice dispensed here based on a few pictures.

There is also a difference between asking a question and posing a rhetorical question. One really is just asking and the other making a backdoor point.

if we are going to comment--there is a constructive way to do that ---if there is a controrverstial aspect or hot topic you think you're seeing there are appropriate ways to say that, not unlike a reporter might weigh info and present with balanced context. There is a big difference with being concerned and pointing it out and thrashing---if something is indeed really bad it's going to be more effective to do some extra legwork to make a well rounded argument without attitude that backs up your postion...than a 5sec it's btv not engaged blah blah ldr page end of story. We are not children on here discussing snacks in the lunchroom---dressage and horse sport is a physically and intellectually challenging pursuit---warrents a little more leg work before you dash off a post IMO.

I personally do not make comments about movements and training I have not done myself and feel a certain rounded proficency in---if I do feel compelled to comment on something out of my depth I like to just say so---and to their credit there are a lot of greener folks on here who do that, which I think is appropriate, and also incudes those who have an idea/comment/thought but don't presume to be an expert or arm chair....post-eur

This forum has a terribly reputation, I know more than one professional whether trainer, farrier, vet, tack store whatever that if you mention "someone on the forum" and they roll their eyes and say "Oh No...."

That's really too bad since for many they really are here looking for help that can't get at home---and are victim to the unscrupulous comments of many---yes, of course there are those that with great self discipline continue to post well written thoughtful responses----but there is a whole lot of off putting garbage that one has to have the savoir faire top ignore....something difficult for many that are here because they don't have vast experience.

[namaste]

But I'm allowed to answer. It isn't anyones business especially arm chair dressage riders who have read to many books...I'm not saying dressage art is that but after reviewing some sites that is the case with some of you.

[galopp]

On the contrary, I think it has a reputation of a lot of discussion. Any negative discussion comes from when there is a request for a description of how ANY exercise (but more specifically exercises which are not traditional for developing collection (rk/ldr) are supposed to work).

As far as how to warm a horse up for the first 6 minutes.....and fei horse should imho go from walking out/etc to lateral work in the walk (which tests reactions and balance). I see no reason to take them down/closed at all. I WANT all the joints of the hindlegs to work, then work on collecting/extending and seeking fdo or coming more up. For me, the ldr (or even fdo) at hte beginning has little reasoning.

[Dressage Art]

In my book, there is NO comparison between the theoretical and physical dressage expertise of a professional rider and trainer such as Catherine Haddad and that of the armchair DQs who are posting on this thread. Some of the claims and opinions here are simply ridiculous . Go ride your horses people!

responce for you with signatures:

http://www.xenophon-classical-riding.org (for original German)

http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=286835141133

(Translated from the German)

Originally Sent Feb. 3 2010
Federation Equestre International
Avenue Rumine 37
CH – 1005 Lausanne Rosendahl
SWITZERLAND

February 3, 2010

Dear Sirs and Madames:

We submit herewith some comments concerning your upcoming roundtable discussion, scheduled for February 9th, at which you will be establishing a final plan for the handling of the topic of Rollkur/Hyperflexion.

Those of us who have signed this letter wish to point out sharply that new or amended rules with regard to the accepted classical precepts of riding, which are contained in the guidelines written down in your Handbook, are absolutely superfluous and therefore unnecessary. These precepts, which the FEI has up until now felt obliged to uphold, are already fully developed, tried and tested! They are already recognized world-wide as authoritative, and as fair to the horse. Based on centuries of experience, they offer a stable and secure foundation even for today’s riding.

No changes may be made that constitute a burden to the well-being of the horse, either physically or mentally. If you accept riding in hyperflexion as a permissible training method, you legitimize aggressive riding. We protest that in the strongest possible terms!

As horse people, we expect the FEI to maintain unaltered their regulations, which have until now been valid, resting as they do upon the classical precepts of riding – for the good of the horses and the continued good repute of international equestrian sport.

The undersigned support this statement:

Klaus Balkenhol (Olympic medalist)

(Joined by, in alphabetical order)
- Laura Bechtolsheimer (British Record Holder, 3. Europameisterschaften 2009)
- Wilfried Bechtolsheimer (Trainer)
- Ingrid Klimke (Olympic medalist)
- Ruth Klimke (Vice President of the German Riders Union)
- Beezie Madden (Olympic medalist)
- John Madden (Trainer)
- Debbie McDonald (Olympic Bronze medalist)
- Susanne Miesner (Trainer)
- George Morris (Chef d’equipe USEF show jumping team, Olympic silver medalist)
- Martin Plewa (former German national Three-Day Event trainer, Director of the Riding and Driving School of Westfalia)
- Michael Putz (Trainer and judge)
- Klaus-Martin Rath (Trainer, member of the Dressage Committee of the German Olympic
Committee)
- Matthias Alexander Rath (German Meister 2009)
- Hinrich Romeike (Olympic medalist)
- Hubertus Schmidt (Olympic medalist)
- Günter Seidel (Olympic bronze medalist)
- Christine Stückelberger (Olympiic medalist)
- Paul Stecken (Trainer)
- Hans Günter Winkler (Olympic medalist)
- Harry Boldt, Dressur. Doppel-Olympiasieger, früherer Bundestrainer Dressur, GBR
- Beatrice Büchler-Keller, Swiss, FEI O-Richter
- Nadine Capellmann, Dressur, Olympiasiegrin
- Carsten Huck, Springen, Olympia Bronze-Gewinner
- Michael Klimke, Deuscther Meister, Dressur
- Ann Kathrinne Linsenhoff, Olympiasiegerin, WElt- und Europameisterin, Mitglied im FN-Präsidium
- Michael Robert, Olympia-Gewinner Bronze, Trainer


.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=286835141133

I agree and I'm very glad to read this letter signed by respected top competitive dressage riders.

Subject of extreme hyperflexion will be hard to sweep under the rug and dismiss people who are concerned about extreme hyperflexion and how it affects athlete-horse's welfare.

Extreme hyperflexion done at the shows on the membership’s dime should be addressed. This issue is not going away and dressage organizations should come with solution how to address this growing concerns extreme hyperflexion in public shows sponsored by membership money.

[pippi longstocking]

what galopp mentions that is also how I would choose to warm up my personal horse----but trhe coontext of this clip was to give a demonstration informally which she did while she was warming up.

there is different things different people do that are not my bag---but I wouldn't thrash them for it or equate it with extreme rk etc.

and believe me...this forum has a rep of the worst sort for amatures of the worst sort---sorry that's how it is. But don't feel bad--I know people into western and qh etc. forums in generally engender the worst sort of poseurs everywhere across discplines....and the internet anonymity brings o0ut some poor behavior in general that would be more daunting face to face

[chisamba]

I find it exceptionally amusing to hear that you can ride LDR "up"

what incredible crap.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=3 ... 4747044948

I think LDR is just part of someone's training method??

I agree with what Ms. Haddad said here, "Furthermore, while I do not support hyperflexion, I also do not equate it with low, down and round. I resent the misuse of labels."

no, she specifically says a wonderful example of LDR, and in another photo she says, a wonderful example of LDR ridden UP, and she has a picture of Klimke, IMPLYING ldr

[chisamba]

But I'm allowed to answer. It isn't anyones business especially arm chair dressage riders who have read to many books...I'm not saying dressage art is that but after reviewing some sites that is the case with some of you.

it amuses me that you think you know how well everyone here rides.

[Monica W]

What constitutes an airchair dressage rider??? (I am having lunch, don't have much time to reply - SO many posts on this thread in a short time)

But I do say, what WAS a civil discussion has now turned typical - defensive, attacking, and absoutely NO useful information being shared.

I asked a basic question - did this show the accordian exercise as she wanted to, or was it limited due to some outside constraint. Initially the answer was Yes, this was what she wanted to show. Now, CH is saying that she can't get engagement with 10 minutes of walking and 2 minutes of trot, and 4 more minutes on the video. I am not sure which is the right answer. I got the impression that her version of the accordian was to change the posture of the neck and ;that was well demonstrated. if that is her definition of the exercise, then it is a fine video.

I just have a different understanding of the exercise.

Just for the record - I ride almost every day - 4-6 horses - not a single one has arms or a chair.

I do NOT have the liberty of riding any upper level horses at this time. I am having to build some from the ground up, and learning a new system, so it is taking much longer. Plus we all lost 6 months due to my injury. But I guess I will rise to the bait and TRY to produce something that I can bear to post. It will take a little while, I fear. But we will see.

But I have NOT made assumptions, or accusations about CH or anyone else. Except she is about 5-10 years younger than I realized (Catherine, you look younger in your photos - kudos to you!) For the record, also, my web site is really not current - apparently I spend so much time on my armchair horses, I just don't have time for the website. My techno badness. But I am what I am, and I claim little more than that. So, if you don't feel my opinion has any value, then you have no reason to even ask for a video.

Well, sandwich is gone. Gotta go fluff some pillows. mw

[Ki]

But I do say, what WAS a civil discussion has now turned typical - defensive, attacking, and absoutely NO useful information being shared.

You've got to be kidding! What did you think was going to happen when someone directed her attention to this thread? On her blog, you ask a question. On here, you write as if you didn't expect her to ever see what you wrote. Now you're surprised that there is unpleasantness?

Were you really not aware what was going to happen when you started this thread?

[LaNet]

The sad thing is, that someone could post a great video and someone would find SOMETHING wong with it. Someone would have a difference in opinion, training technique, etc.
Yrs ago I posted a video of Lisa Wilcox riding Rubinero. Since most ppl on the dressage BB are not breeders or follow stallions, they had no idea who was riding him as it did not say. Well, the ripped this "rider" apart telling how much she was doing wrong, etc. Cracked me up.
Also the video of Reiner, now some ppl rip in apart on his ride too. Some love it, some hate it.
Dressage is a subjective sport and based on opinion and what seems like a lot of nasty politics.
Hell, even on a 84% ride from Edward and Totilas, people were picking him apart.
It just never ends.
Anyway, there is no perfect ride, there is no perfect training and people have to get out of it what they WANT to. I have a rule here at the farm. People can have opinions of others, but never nasty and if you ARE going to battle someone you have to be on the same level as they are in your riding, competition as well as abilities.
What I consider ACQ are those who are lucky to ride a 3rd level test but stand out there and rip the Grand Prix riders a new ass because......... they know it all.
Ok, carry on...........

[Alex]

Just because a discussion starts the downhill slide doesn't mean it can't be resuscitated on a better note. I think there are specific moments (1:17 and 1:26) after CH has begun to bring him up (when she's finally playing *notes* on the accordion) when Catherine Haddad proffers the rein that do give her guy a test of his self-carriage and also an acknowledgment that he's doing well and should continue in the same carriage. He looks like a horse w/a not very rounded leg gesture and I think his unique leg action is part of what makes a biomechanical change very evident or not. Does he always sit as much as he could early on in this video? Maybe not, but that's what makes riding the individual horse such an important factor for the rider. He does have additional sit when she really asks him. Again, it's what the individual horse brings to the table and how the rider copes with and enables the horse that illustrates the substance behind the training or not, that illustrates whether the rider is trying to facilitate things for the horse or for themselves.

I'm not even going into the misuse of labels about LDR vs HF/RK. LDR is not synonymous w/HF/RK, and if Catherine H. is llustrating what she signed the LDR petition to protect and this is what she's practicing, I'd agree w/its being more innocuous than not. There is a middle ground in LDR and this is what it looks like.

[Dressage Art]

Catherine Haddad is a member of PRO-LOW-DEEP-AND-ROUND group:

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?v=wal ... 5476607441 and the organizer states the reason why she created that Facebook group:

IMPORTANT MESSAGE !

We have now about 1000 members, which is good, but it could be even a higher number very quickly if EVERY BODY in this group would do the effort to bring 2 more persons each to this important cause on FaceBook !

The activistes want the LDR to be BANNED at the meeting FEI the 9th of february !

Don't let... them get their way !!!

Show the world that the technics LOW DEEP AND ROUND are welcome and OK !

PRO-LOW-DEEP-AND-ROUND is just another pro-rollkur and pro-hyperflexion group that supports Sief's extreme hyperflexion methods. Catherine Haddad agrees that she is a member of that group.

Why do I care? B/c pro-rollkur supportes now are saying that Catherine Haddad supports rollkur. That is not fair to her if she doesn't support rollkur.

[Cadenced]

Wow, well if CH wasnt pro rollkur before, she might just decide to be so after how she has been treated here.

[galopp]

Every night when I was in Germany we all discussed the days rides: Great points, missing elements, analysis of pix and vids. That is what riders who are thinking do. As dressage riders we must build on what is there, and make changes to advance the horse.

It goes without saying that horseman SHOULD have a differences of opinion. Because opinions are colored by exposure and depth. But interestingly enough the Four Ecoles can have slightly different METHODS, but they have the same INTENTIONS (uphill riding/collection). Their interpretations are like serving stews which are terrior tastes, but they are all stews. The analysis must be: define the basis of training, the methods, the progression, put it in a frame of reference. Nasty attacks come when training is not on the same page. There actually was a time when the page (progressive collection) was the same. It was merely informational when methods to get there were discussed. The discussion should NEVER end...the training of horses is ONGOING.

The problem comes when the defense is not reasoned as to the balance training is supposed be calculated toward, namely collection. IF that is NOT what we are doing, but a veiled approximation calculated to win, then admit to that. And IF someone is going to choose not only a method which is controversial as to application length/etc but as to intention which goes against the directives of TRAINING (which is supposed to underlie showing). Those people have to be called out to explain themselves, and explain LOGICALLY (NOT with urban legend) why they are to work (toward COLLECTION). OR, is that no longer the point?

The interesting thing is that so many people into somehow a 'finding something wrong with things' vs how individuals would train and why.

It's rather like the listing of many exercises, like a list from de la G or a clinic. But exercises are only as good as the intention. And intentions are only as good as underlying theory. The discussions here should be is this accordian-ing the horse and in what way. Take personalities out of it, stick the point that which being discussed.

Of course, every rider work on their equitation and timing. That goes without saying. Armchair, beginners, olympians. Move on from that one. It is by DISCUSSION that (mental) approaches are advanced, and by expirimentation that abilities are advanced. It is even MORE CLEAR when observing better riders where the obvious errors are, it teaches the eye, it gives a feeling, then we all go out and work on ourselves in that frame of reference. I hope that no one (beginning to end...is there an end) feels at all muzzled to express their observations. You know what they say out of the mouths of babes, well, they have a kind of clarity as well (even husbands ).

[OnCue]

When Ms. Haddad posts statement like Furthermore, while I do not support hyperflexion, I also do not equate it with low, down and round. I resent the misuse of labels. That is why I (with a clear mind and in total confidence about my training methods) joined this group, it makes me wonder if she understands that the rollkur/hyperflextion folks have co-opted LDR as their new terminology. Because they surely didn't invent it, I started riding jumpers in 197-eek, and it was demonstrated to me then and refered to as down and round. And it certainly wasn't rollkur.

[morganflyer]

Catherine Haddad is a member of PRO-LOW-DEEP-AND-ROUND group:

PRO-LOW-DEEP-AND-ROUND is just another pro-rollkur and pro-hyperflexion group that supports Sief's extreme hyperflexion methods. Catherine Haddad agrees that she is a member of that group.

Why do I care? B/c pro-rollkur supportes now are saying that Catherine Haddad supports rollkur. That is not fair to her if she doesn't support rollkur.

I think this is a very valid point and I would think that any trainer especially one who makes their living teaching would want people to know where they sit on this contentious issue. As a novice I have long been a fan of Ms. Haddad's riding and think she is an especially talented teacher. Excellent communicator. I watched her vid's on the training site over and over and learned a lot. I am very disappointed that she is supporting these practices. Especially on a website where there are out right lies being put forth such as the Klimke pic. being an example of LDR ridden up and Waz's pic of incorrect positioning. Both men were/are very vocal about their opinion that this was the beginning of the end.

[Monica W]

But I do say, what WAS a civil discussion has now turned typical - defensive, attacking, and absoutely NO useful information being shared.

You've got to be kidding! What did you think was going to happen when someone directed her attention to this thread? On her blog, you ask a question. On here, you write as if you didn't expect her to ever see what you wrote. Now you're surprised that there is unpleasantness?

Were you really not aware what was going to happen when you started this thread?

\
You are incorrect - I NEVER post anything that I don't expect the whole world to see. I chose not to make any negative comments on Catherines Blog, because it is HER blog, and I think that would be extremely rude. Now she has come here, to an open web site, and to her full credit, she is willing to discuss this matter.

I would say that what she presents here is fully acceptable. I also do not think ANYONE wants to ban deep riding, or even a bit of behind the vertical in warm up. Whether that is in a classical tradition of training is a whole different discussion and NOT part of this one, imo. If she feels that the Facebook site in question is simply a banding together of people who just believe in deep work, and think the FEI is going to ban it, well, I guess that is her right to that opinion. I do think she ought to know how others preceive that group.

{please disregard this follwing part, since I somehow misread who the poster was in the attached quote. I choose not to edit it out, because IF she had said this, this it woudl have been my reply, and I hate when other people make posts 'disappear' unless what was said was really slander or rude. So, I will let my error remain. }

Catherine - first of all, I appreciate that you did come back to this discussion. I did not address you personally earlier because I was under the impression that you would not be back. Anyway, I am glad you are still here. I agree 100% with what you say in this paragraph

The problem comes when the defense is not reasoned as to the balance training is supposed be calculated toward, namely collection. IF that is NOT what we are doing, but a veiled approximation calculated to win, then admit to that. And IF someone is going to choose not only a method which is controversial as to application length/etc but as to intention which goes against the directives of TRAINING (which is supposed to underlie showing). Those people have to be called out to explain themselves, and explain LOGICALLY (NOT with urban legend) why they are to work (toward COLLECTION). OR, is that no longer the point?

However, that statement seems out of sync with what is being said on the Face book group that you joined. And the need to 'call them out' is exactly what the FEI meeting is Hopefully about.

I DO believe that aggressive hyperflexion does not belong in the warm up ring . I cannot tell riders at any level what to do in their own yards - but if poling can be banned for jumpers on FEI show sites, i think extreme prolonged hyperflexion can also be banned on show grounds. Just as 'excessive spurring' is cause for carding from the steward - this didn't ban spurs, just their misuse. I honestly think that the stewards can see when someone has crossed the line - but up until now, the FEI has failed to support their cards, so they have given up issuing them. IF the FEI will come up with guidelines that indicate how far is too far, and then be willing to back up their stewards, the problem will be solved - at least as far as the show grounds, and public perception. As far as how these people continue to train at home, well, there is a lot of training I don't agree with.

Dispite what some are saying about me, I have not trashed your video - I have said it didn't show what I expected, and honestly, given my opinion of you as a representative of classic training, I was expecting something other than what you showed. I understand at this point, it was only your goal to present the range of neck postures you might use in a show ring warm up - not in context, and you were not using them to actually achieve a goal - just sort of running through the motions.

Obviously, we have some personal differences of opinion about the effectiveness of deep and over round, but you are quite successful with what you do, and i don't have a problem with it. As you say, discussion and differences of opinion are normal healthy part of horsemanship, and the more different ways a rider has to approach each individual horse's training, the more likely success will come.

I do think you should be aware of how many people preceive the LDR OK group. But no one is purely defined by the company they keep.

I hope you will continue with your blog, and at least you now know that people ARE reading, and discussing. And I am very interested to hear more about why Herr Schultheis said you must come alone!!! (not done riding, must go). mw

[morganflyer]

Monica you've quoted Paula not CH.

[Monica W]

See what happens when I speed read ??? So I would guess that Catherine may Not re post here. How ironic - I Know I agree with Paula, I just somehow saw Catherine's name in the thread title and got thinking that she was the poster?!!! And I was so very pleased with what I read. My bad - part of the problem with zooming up the view so I can read without glasses, and trying to keep up with this thread between rides while grabbing food or resting my back. However, I will not edit what I wrote, to fix my mistake, except to add the correction to admit my foolishness. mw

[Miller]

I am embarrassed for a few of you posters. It's crap like this that makes me want to pull my own teeth out with a pair of pliers sometimes while reading these "training" threads.

[Frogling]

I am embarrassed for a few of you posters. It's crap like this that makes me want to pull my own teeth out with a pair of pliers sometimes while reading these "training" threads.

Ditto.

IMO actions speak louder than words or whatever facebook clique one desides to join. I have seen but two videos of Catherine Haddad warming up (the one shown here included) and in both cases I did not see any example of rolkur. I saw a horse moving forward and swinging and stretching down. Sometimes maybe BTV (oh the horrors) but to turn the attention away from the head/neck I saw a horse getting relaxed and loosened up. And so that says a lot more to me than if she signed some group or whatever.

There are so many more horrible things going on in the world right now to worry about. I'm not saying that we should just ignore rolkur but I just don't get this jump out of your seat every time you see a horse with his nose BTV or one that isn't going along with your out-of-the-textbook idea of what a dressage horse should look like. If we're going to scream rolkur every time we don't see a horse going exactly the way we think it should, might as well hang up your boots right now.

Thanks Catherine for posting on this thread. Try not to take anything we keyboard jockeys say too personally. A few weeks ago it was Stephan Peters, in a few weeks it will be someone else. LOL

[Dressagechic]

I am embarrassed for a few of you posters. It's crap like this that makes me want to pull my own teeth out with a pair of pliers sometimes while reading these "training" threads.

ditto, i am cringing for some of the posters on here and hope that CH doesnt lump us all in together......................

[Cowgirl]

Ditto, ditto, ditto!

I watched Catherine's video (LOVELY horse, btw) and I didn't think she was trying to demonstrate anything other than how someone can cause the neck to change position without doing it with the hands. I think Conrad Schumacher does this in his symposiums all the time. It's a way to play with the horse and demonstrate a harmony with one body part--not by command but by properly asking and receiving. If she was doing a forward and back exercise, she would be also demonstrating changes through the hind legs as well--and it would have been a different demonstration. No one has mentioned this, but I did appreciate the very obvious gives forward to allow the horse to assume the new position, etc., I did appreciate how the changes in neck positions were all done through a foward thought, not a backward one. And I did appreciate how the horse answered each request willingly.

I wonder whether dressage is worked to death by some so much that you can't just enjoy one simple demonstration? And you can't find anything positive about it to discuss???!!!!

[Alex]

Cowgirl, that was the point of my post..... Sometimes I word things in a roundabout fashion and I realize several posts later people don't readily follow my thinking sometimes.

[Busted]

Lovely horse and lovely rider.

No one - EVER!! - should have to explain themselves for exercising their right to free speech or to join whatever group they want. I joined the "Pro LDR" group too, as well as the same-sex marriage group. I too have no personal interest in same-sex marriage and don't practive rollkur. I am pro tolerance. I am pro diversity. I am anti anti-rollkur. I am sick of ad hominem attacks. I am sick of people who can't keep a horse sound into Fourth Level sending me e-mails asking me to sign a petition to ban a technique used by riders who can keep their GP horses sound and competing into their teens. I don't care about the identity of the poster (referring to om's posts about Theo) as I am a smart girl and can judge the message for myself.

As someone said on COTH: Haiti Earthquake. I would add domestic violence, child abuse, finding a cure for cancer, ending poverty, horse neglect, puppy mills - these are causes that are important to me. How someone rides a horse that is well-fed, sheltered and obviously sound and healthy enough to compete at FEI level? Not so much so.

I better go have my morning coffee now

[Ryeissa]

this forum has really changed. I'm all for discussion but you guys need to relax. The messages here are being lost in the finger pointing.

I still think there needs to be forum for all things RK/LDR/etc since it seems that is all you guys can talk about these days. Please get back to a discussion of the video and not all these assumptions/opinions.

I know this is a hot button issue but that is not what most of us are doing on a daily basis. Chill. The fact is I am not learning from these threads, and I'm beginning to tire of these rants. Its sad, really, but there is only so much one can read.

Thanks and happy riding,
Rye

[sandrine]

Lovely horse and lovely rider.

No one - EVER!! - should have to explain themselves for exercising their right to free speech or to join whatever group they want. I joined the "Pro LDR" group too, as well as the same-sex marriage group. I too have no personal interest in same-sex marriage and don't practive rollkur. I am pro tolerance. I am pro diversity. I am anti anti-rollkur. I am sick of ad hominem attacks. I am sick of people who can't keep a horse sound into Fourth Level sending me e-mails asking me to sign a petition to ban a technique used by riders who can keep their GP horses sound and competing into their teens. I don't care about the identity of the poster (referring to om's posts about Theo) as I am a smart girl and can judge the message for myself.

As someone said on COTH: Haiti Earthquake. I would add domestic violence, child abuse, finding a cure for cancer, ending poverty, horse neglect, puppy mills - these are causes that are important to me. How someone rides a horse that is well-fed, sheltered and obviously sound and healthy enough to compete at FEI level? Not so much so.

I better go have my morning coffee now

Super post. This should be stickied at the top of this forum for future reference.

[Maryann Kleynendorst]

I'm the one that posted the link to Catherine's blog in the other thread. All I can say is wow, some of you have truly sunk to a brand new low.

Was so relieved that Miller finally had the balls to step in and say what I think a majority were thinking.

Maryann

[chisamba]

The same freedom of speech that you are asking for, grants that everyone may have their opinion, and express it as they see fit. It is a double edged sword, you cannot grant only freedom of expression to those you agree with.

To each person, the right, ability and responsibility of governing their own actions, and choosing how to react to the actions of others. What you say on these forums says much more about you as a person, then it says about those you chose to address.

My opinion and questions to Catherine, I addressed to her blog, as she requested. It seems to me the polite and reasoned thing to do.

[kwitzi]

I think for the most part this forum is more civil than most on the internet.I pretty much stick to this forum or I'd be spending all my time on line! The only thing I dislike is when people attack others instead of the issues. Like a few times I gave my opinion that Parelli groundwork would help a horse, and people attacked ME, not the method , saying I was a 1) kool aid drinking cult member 2) secretly working for them and on their payroll to promote them ( (I wish) . So sometimes some of us need to stick more to the issues instead of personalities. But that is the internet so I take it with a grain of salt. I probably offended a few people occasionally too in the heat of writing, sometimes we wish we could take it back, don't we?

[Canada Sam]

Busted and Cowgirl expressed it best for me.

I can only assume most of you have never seen a training session before. It's the only possible explanation for all the sturm and drang about a working session on a very nice horse with a very competent, educated rider in the saddle.

If Podhasky and Klimke did a pas de deux on Pegasus and Bucephales someone would get out the protractor and say they something negative.

[Havyn]

If Podhasky and Klimke did a pas de deux on Pegasus and Bucephales someone would get out the protractor and say they something negative.

Sad but true and it made me chuckle this morning

[Quarterline]

If Podhasky and Klimke did a pas de deux on Pegasus and Bucephales someone would get out the protractor and say they something negative.

Can I please use this quote??? hahahahaha

Regardless of how you ride/train this statement is awesome!

[Ryeissa]

If Podhasky and Klimke did a pas de deux on Pegasus and Bucephales someone would get out the protractor and say they something negative.

Can I please use this quote??? hahahahaha

Regardless of how you ride/train this statement is awesome!

yeah...no kidding, very true statement around here these days.
Rye

[Dressagechic]

enormous snort-canada sam thats amazing!

[Canada Sam]

All before the second cup of coffee too.

But check my spelling I can never spell Alois' name and I think Bucephalus is how you spell the other horse! Feel free to use when needed.

[Equiart]

One more suggestion...
for those of you who feel compelled to voice your opinion (in a negative way), why not offer a compliment for every criticism? Try to see the GOOD first. There were so many positive things about this horse & rider, and I'm sure there is a lot that we could learn from her... now I would be surprised if she ever posts anything here again. Lost opportunity.

[kauai girl]

Busted, Miller, and Ki....i love you guys. thank you.

[galopp]

What is interesting is the discussion is lost. Things like what are the effects of a longer closed neck on balance vs obedience, or any of a myriad of possible discussion points go unanswered. Did WS (being the school of Berlin) do this? He could be harsh in many ways, but that was not one of them.

[JudgeJudy]

Those who talk sense say it in few words.

[Dressage Art]

Catherine's accordion video - includes Deep method or Long Deep and Round LDR as Catherine calls it.
Catherine choose to publish her LDR video on her COTH blog that she is paid to do. Everybody knows that LDR work is controversial and not 100% will agree with that and some will have questions.

Just like Robert Dover, Catherine Haddad chooses to talk about LDR on her blog and that brought out a discussion. She went even further, posted her own video of LDR, called it LDR, and joined the group in support of LDR/rollkur/hyperflexion.

I like the work that Robert Dover does and even I didn't participate in that discussion, I was impressed that he answered various questions, I've read it and it was an interesting read.

Yes, freedom of speech is a double edged sword. It's strange to expect to post a video of work that you call LDR (aka hot topic) on a blog that suppose to promote discussion and not to expect reasonable or clarifying questions.

[galopp]

It's strange to expect to post a video of work that you call LDR (aka hot topic) on a blog that suppose to promote discussion and not to expect reasonable or clarifying questions.

Absolutely, but many people who show use varieties of the same methods. Just like square saddle pads, join the group. But reasoned behaviors are something else. I have hours of WS riding on tape (and what he really did when he locked the riding hall doors (from the inside) none of us will ever know, some actions/hh were bittingly clear (some would say harsh) to get the horses to responsd. But the school of Berlin (WS/BG/etc) did not do LDR, heck today they would even be called hollowing

[OnCue]

I didn't join the LDR group simply because their description doesn't match their content. The photo labeling is ridiculous. "Three of them using the LDR during the prize giving, the horses behind the vertical." And saying that checking a horse to a jump is rollkur? Yes, if you believe that is true, then I can see why you would be against banning it. But talk about stupid, that's really not what anyone is talking about. I would say it cheapens their whole defense, but that doesn't seem to matter to them.

It's so weird... it's like they're pointing to various shades of red and green and blue, and saying it's yellow, and why would anyone want to ban yellow? Dude, it's not yellow.

[swgarasu]

I am so sick of reading about RK. But people can't leave it alone. Now that all the forums are mucked up with it, it's going to the blogs. I get that she asks for questions to be addressed to her blog, but I wonder how long it will be before she is fed up with having to trample the same ground over and over. It doesn't make for interesting reading or interesting writing. It is sad when top pros eventually stop writing on the internet because of the way people inevitably pick them apart and hound them.

[Dressage Art]

This is the reason why there were so many hot topics about both sides of RK debate approaching TODAY'S meeting about RK:

FEI PRESS RELEASE Lausanne (SUI), 9 February 2010 FEI ROUND TABLE CONFERENCE RESOLVES ROLLKUR CONTROVERSY

Following constructive debate at the FEI round-table conference at the IOC Headquarters in Lausanne today (9 February), the consensus of the group was that any head and neck position achieved through aggressive force is not acceptable. The group redefined hyperflexion/Rollkur as flexion of the horse’s neck achieved through aggressive force, which is therefore unacceptable. The technique known as Low, Deep and Round (LDR), which achieves flexion without undue force, is acceptable.

The group unanimously agreed that any form of aggressive riding must be sanctioned. The FEI will establish a working group, headed by Dressage Committee Chair Frank Kemperman, to expand the current guidelines for stewards to facilitate the implementation of this policy. The group agreed that no changes are required to the current FEI Rules.

The FEI Management is currently studying a range of additional measures, including the use of closed circuit television for warm-up arenas at selected shows.

The group also emphasised that the main responsibility for the welfare of the horse rests with the rider.

The FEI President HRH Princess Haya accepted a petition of 41,000 signatories against Rollkur presented by Dr Gerd Heuschman.

The participants in the FEI round-table conference were:

HRH Princess Haya, FEI President
Alex McLin, FEI Secretary General
Margit Otto-Crépin, International Dressage Riders Club Representative
Linda Keenan, International Dressage Trainers Club Representative
Sjef Janssen, Dressage Representative
Frank Kemperman, Chairman, FEI Dressage Committee (by conference call)
François Mathy, International Jumping Riders Club Representative
David Broome, Jumping Representative
Jonathan Chapman, Eventing Representative
Roly Owers, World Horse Welfare Representative
Tony Tyler, World Horse Welfare Representative
Ulf Helgstrand, President, Danish Equestrian Federation
John McEwen, Chairman, FEI Veterinary Committee
Dr Sue Dyson, Veterinary Representative
Dr Gerd Heuschman, Veterinary Representative
Prof. René van Weeren, Veterinary Representative
Jacques van Daele, FEI Honorary Steward General Dressage
Graeme Cooke, FEI Veterinary Director
Trond Asmyr, FEI Director Dressage and Para-Equestrian Dressage
John Roche, FEI Director Jumping and Stewarding
Catrin Norinder, FEI Director Eventing
Carsten Couchouron, FEI Executive Director Commercial
Richard Johnson, FEI Communications Director

And I personally don't think that one can tire from standing up against the "aggressive force, aggressive riding" to horses that they love and care about. And 41,000 signatories against Rollkur support that view.